Imperative + que + subjunctive vs. Imperitive + que + indicative

Question

I posted this on a separate thread. Astotxua suggested that I post it as a separate question. Below, I state my original confusion and then I try to explain what I think now, having reflected on the problem for awhile and having received comments from astotxua. In addition to letting me know if my comments on the end are "on the right track" (or not) it would be helpful if anyone could explain, in general, when an imperative, followed by que triggers the subjunctive and when it does not. Or, if it is possible, show an example where an imperative could be followed by either the subjunctive or indicative with a difference in meaning.

Astotxua wrote;

Entiende que me tengo que ir. Is in imperative mode. The singular second person ( you tu) Understand that I have to go.

If it is the imperative, why is the verb not tenga instead of tengo? I thought after a verb in the imperative + que and a different subject that the verb should go in the subjunctive. (update: I now understand why this is not always the case, see the end of this answer where I try to explain why.)

Is it because the nature of the verb (entender, creer, pensar, etc.) overrides the imperative aspect? (up date...no it has nothing to do with this)

Here's an example of subjunctive after and imperative (diles - tell them)

Y tú, cuando vayas a lo de las orejas diles que te hagan un estiramiento facial.

And you, when you go to get your ears fixed, tell them to give you a face lift.

Here is a web article on yabla that discusses subjunctive after imperative + que, but there were no examples with verbs such as creer, pensar or entender. (update: doesn't matter, this has nothing to do with it)

Subjunctive after imperative + que

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My current thinking:

In this case, que is being used as a simple connector of two phrases. There is no subjunctive trigger.

Entiende que me tengo que ir. could have been stated as:

Entiende, por favor. Tengo que irme.
Entiende. Tengo que irme.
Espero que entiendas. Tengo que irme.
Espero que entiendas, pero tengo que irme.
Espero que entiendas que tengo que irme.
Discúlpame, tengo que irme.
Perdóname, tengo que irme.
Perdóname que tengo que irme.
and probably a zillion other ways.

In the original sentence, and one of the examples above, the que is just connecting two sentences which could have been separated by periods or commas. It is just a simple conjunction, sort of like "and" or "but". It is not being used as a subordinating conjunction, therefore the second clause is not a subordinate clause in the subjunctive.

If someone could let me know if "I've got it now" I would appreciate it.

Thanks, DilKen

Answer 1

If I knew what triggers the subjunctive in all the cases and all the rules there are I think I would get crazy. So why do we , native speakers, get it so naturally? It must be the exposure to the language. I can't answer you but exposure to correct sentences with subjunctive and indicative could be the answer.

For example in the sentences you give:
Perdóname que tengo que irme
could be also
Perdóname que tenga que irme.

How hard would the subjunctive be for me too if I had to study it through rules.! It's a real pain in the neck!! My sympathy! LOL

Thanks Polenta, we gladly accept your sympathy. I think you're right. At my level I should just listen to and read more Spanish and spend less time with the rules. I probably know enough rules by now to get along. :) - DilKen, Jul 18, 2017

I assume in your above sentence with tengo vs tenga that there is NO real change in meaning. It is just "fielders choice." Right? - DilKen, Jul 18, 2017

I used to lament the fact that not every Spanish speaker could explain "why" here on SD. Now I don't. Someone who doesn't know all the rules is more likely to give us the keen advice: Exposure! ") Thanks again. - DilKen, Jul 18, 2017

"go" crazy not get crazy - patch, Jul 18, 2017

I'm already going crazy with all the subjunctive rules, patch! lol - polenta1, Jul 18, 2017

Answer 2

Entiende que me tengo que ir

Understand that I have to leave. (Imperative)

Know that I'm going to leave. (Imperative)

Don't doubt that I'm leaving (Negative imperative)

...are all in a similar vein as far as I can see. I would instinctively use Spanish indicative for all of these. (I wonder if I'm right???). There doesn't seem to be any of that "disconnect" stuff that we see with the subjunctive. Like for example in the classic textbook sentence...

Espero que vengas a la fiesta

...we all know that subjunctive must be used here.

(former SD legend) Lazarus1907 used to describe it in terms of "declaration" in the part of the phrase after "que". In above example we cannot declare that you are coming to the party so it must be subjunctive. In my mind it is a "disconnect" between the 2 sides of the "que"> I'm sure that we all have a way of rationalising the subjunctive though. That's just the word I use

I don't see any of that in the above sentences. No ifs buts or maybes. I'm leaving and I'm indicating it (indicative mood)

Thanks Patch. I think we're in agreement. My initial confusion probably came from studying the subjunctive TOO much. :) - DilKen, Jul 18, 2017

I was sort of treating it as if every imperative was an order that someone do something. When the person after que is yourself, as was the case here, that doesn't make any sense. Hope someone else learns from my dumb mistake. :) - DilKen, Jul 18, 2017