Accidental "Se" phrasing.

Question

Which phrasing is right for the following translation?

The exercise is "Accidental Se".
"Se"+ "Indirect Object" + "3rd Person Verb" + "Subject".

"I left the packet that had your documents in it on the train."

My translation:

"Se me quedó el paquete que contenía tus documentos en el tren."

The translation provided:

"Se me quedó en el tren el paquete que contenía tus documentos."

I think the subject "el paquete" should come first.

Thank you, Ken

My guess (because I'm not a native speaker) is that it doesn't matter whether "el paquete" or "en el tren" comes first. Maybe francobello will reply. - Jubilado, May 21, 2013

He did. Thank you all! I have been wondering about this for a long time, I would see these structures and it confused me, now I know, and can watch for them in the future. - amaken, May 21, 2013

Answer 1

I like yours with ¨el paquete¨ better, but don´t know that the machine one is wrong. Many times word order is interchangeable and is just a matter of which you want to emphasize. That it was the packet that was lost, or that it was left on the train A native (or other advanced speaker) will hopefully be able to offer something more definitive.

Thanks rogspax! - amaken, May 21, 2013

Answer 2

The intransitive use of quedarse plus the indirect pronoun me is quite a common construction in Spanish.

Se me quedó el paquete en el tren

or

Se me quedó en el tren el paquete

or even

El paquete que contenía tus documentos se me quedo en el tren

mean exactly the same. Culturally speaking, Spanish is a language notorious for making excuses. It's very hard for people to admit their own guilt (i.e. having forgotten something).

We have no problem expressing our faults in English: I left the package behind on the train. Whereas in Spanish you are literally saying. The package left itself behind on me (never admitting your guilt).

Other examples of such constructions include:

Se me cayó el plato y se rompió. I did not break it. The dish fell on me and broke. Whereas in English it would not be uncommon to hear:

"I dropped the dish on the floor and it broke into pieces."

I hope this helps.

Everything is correct, except the one the part where we accept or not our mistakes... Look at my answer to that... - chileno, May 21, 2013

Great! I have seen phrasings that didn't seem correct before. When I see them in the future, I will understand. Thank You! - amaken, May 21, 2013

Answer 3

franco:

We have no problem expressing our faults in English: I left the package behind on the train. Whereas in Spanish you are literally saying. The package left itself behind on me (never admitting your guilt).

Although, you could be right, the same thing happens in English... You'll see.

El paquete se quedó en el tren = The packet (it) got lost (avoids the blame)

I forgot the packet in the train = Se me olvidó el paquete en el tren.

This last options isn't avoiding the blame.

Get it?

Thanks chileno, I know a person that uses accidental in English, It fell, It broke, It's missing. Which mean I dropped it, I broke it, I lost it. ;) - amaken, May 21, 2013

Answer 4

This question is more about Topicalization than accidental se.

http://aix1.uottawa.ca/~romlab/pubs/Rivero.1978.pdf

"I left the packet that had your documents in it on the train."

"Se me quedó el paquete que contenía tus documentos en el tren."

The translation provided:

"Se me quedó en el tren el paquete que contenía tus documentos."

Both are fine because in Spanish you can move these things around pretty willy nilly.

You can even put Se me quedó at the end of the sentence, though I think that must be an odd way to do it as when it is done there is a comma used to emphasize that this is not a normal way of doing it.

el paquete que contenía tus documentos This is a relative clause that modifies the antecedent "el paquete." which means it is basically just like an adjective. Pretend it is "que es rojo" then the sentences would be

Se me quedó en el tren el paquete rojo.

Se me quedó el paquete rojo en el tren

El paquete rojo se me quedó en el tren

En el tren se me quedó el paquete rojo

and they should all be acceptable.

If you really want to understand it, look up topicalization (I may be misspelling it) relative clauses, and relative pronouns (things like que, and maybe el que, lo que, lo cual, etc. I can't recall if those count at the moment). The placement of concrete statements in Spanish is far more liberal than in English. To accomplish what they Spanish do with clauses in English we have to use a million prepositions.

Thanks Aturing, I will look at that, now I'm aware that the phrasing order can be changed, and not be grammatically incorrect. - amaken, May 21, 2013

Answer 5

As Aturing said, there are various choices available but between the two you have given, I would choose "Se me quedó en el tren el paquete que contenía tus documentos" because the packet is the thing with the closest relationship to the train and the documents are inside that packet with less contact with the train than the packet.

Another way to look at this: The packet was left on the train and the documents inside are simply a description of the packet - extra information.

If you want to emphsize the documents, then just say they were left on the train with no need to mention the packet.

Thank you Julian, I will keep this in mind in the future, in the past, I have seen this type of phrasing and didn't understand, I thought it might be bad grammar (compared to English). Good Stuff! - amaken, May 21, 2013