Es increíble que –vs– Es increíble lo que
Recently, there was a question asked in regards to the choice of verbal mood in the following expression:
Es increíble lo que algunas personas pueden pintar.
At least a couple of people were confused as to why the indicative would be used here. It seems that much of the confusion may have arisen due to the association of this particular expression with certain “impersonal expressions” which take the form
“Es + adjective + que+ subjunctive”
Although “Es increíble lo que” and “Es increíble que” represent two distinct propositions, the difference may not be readily apparent to everyone. Because of this, and because another member asked whether I might like to explain to her more fully the difference between the two, I am posting this attempt at an explanation.
Essentially, what it boils down to is the difference between the following two expressions:
What someone does indeed do is unbelievable [declarative]
—and—
For someone to do something (whether it is done or not) is unbelievable [non-declarative]
If you understand this difference then there is probably no need to go any further. If not, below is my attempt at an explanation:
In order to make this information as accessible possible, I will be attempting to present the relevant information in a step-wise fashion, building each subsequent step upon its predecessor. Hopefully, this will make my line of reasoning easier to follow; however, if you have any questions, comments or criticisms that might make this information easier to understand, please feel free to post them below so that others might learn from them.
It would probably be easiest to consider this sentence from the standpoint of simple predication; namely, the subject of the sentence is being assigned an attribute (“increíble”) by the linking verb “ser.” We'll try to keep this fact in mind as we analyze the sentences that follow.
The simplest predication that we can make with this particular adjective would be:
Es increíble ? It is incredible
And this would break down as follows:
Subject: unspecified 3rd person singular (it, that, etc)
Verb: Es (is)
Attribute: increíble (incredible/unbelievable)
From this very simple example, we see that we have all the ingredients necessary for simple predication, (1) a subject, (2) a linking verb and (3) a predicate adjective (i.e. attributive expression). We might also note that in this example, the expression lacks an explicit subject, that is, the subject is only evidenced by the verb’s inflected form.
If we wished to be more specific, we might then add a bit more information regarding the subject:
La cosa es increíble ? The thing is incredible
Subject: La cosa (the thing)
Verb: Es (is)
Attribute: increíble (incredible/unbelievable)
From here, if we so desired, we might supply even more information in regards to the subject of the sentence. That is to say that we might modify our noun phrase (la cosa) with some sort of adjective:
La cosa verde es increíble ? The green thing is incredible.
Subject: La cosa verde (the green thing)
Adjective: verde (green)
Verb: Es (is)
Attribute: increíble (incredible/unbelievable)
Now it must be pointed out that the term adjective also applies to adjectival expressions such as we see with certain relative clauses. Using such an expression we can differentiate our "thing" from "things" of a different nature:
La cosa que puede hacer es increíble ? The thing that he is able to do is incredible
Subject: La cosa que puede hacer (the thing that he is able to do)
Adjectival expression: que puede hacer (that he is able to do)
Verb: Es (is)
Attribute: increíble (incredibly/unbelievable)
Notice that this adjectival expression is tied to our original noun phrase and does not participate directly (i.e. it does not act as a core argument) in our original predication. It is used to describe or declare some real characteristic of the noun that sets it apart from other nouns of its class. Because of the declarative nature of this expression, we choose the indicative for our verb form.
From here, it might get a bit tricky depending on how familiar you are with the use of the neuter article “lo.” Just to be safe, I will point out a few pertinent facts in regards to its use:
1). “Lo” is typically considered a neuter article because of its ability to nominalize adjectives and certain relative clauses. On the other hand, many linguists also treat it as a pronoun for its ability to stand in for a noun.
Nominalized Expressions: Lo malo; lo bueno; lo que veo; lo que dice, etc.
2). Depending on context, the referential lo can often be interpreted as “la cosa/las cosas (the thing/the things)” or “el parte/los partes (the part/the parts);” however, even if we consider the meaning to be plural (i.e. the things vs. the thing), the form of lo remains invariable (that is, it does not take a plural form despite the overall meaning).
Nominalized Expressions:
Lo malo ? The bad thing
Lo bueno ? The good thing
Lo que veo ? The thing that I see
Lo que dice ? The thing that he says
3). When “lo” is used in the manner described above, it is often referred to as “referencial” or “individuativo” because it refers to or selects a single characteristic from its referent.
Lo malo del retrato… ? The bad thing about the portrait
Lo bueno del retrato… ? The good thing about the portrait
Lo increíble del retrato… ? The incredible thing about the portrait
Lo que dice del retrato… ? The thing that he says about the portrait is
Lo que veo del retrato… ? The thing that I see about the portrait is
Now that we have these points out of the way, we can continue on with our analysis. Remember that we left off with the expression,
La cosa que puede hacer es increíble.
From here, we should be able to see that the article “lo” can just as easily fill in for the expression “la cosa” so that we are left with:
Lo que puede hacer es increíble.
Now if we take a closer look at the expression “lo que,” we might note that it roughly translates to “the thing(s) that.” From here we have at our disposal a couple of other expressions which we might use as substitutes:
Lo que ? That which ? What
Of the two, “what” is probably the more common expression to use. In this way, we can think of our expression as:
Lo que puede hacer es increíble. ? What he is able to do is incredible
Remember that because Spanish does not follow a strict subject-verb-object word order so that an equally valid interpretation of our sentence might be:
It is incredible what he is able to do. (i.e. It is incredible, the things that he is able to do)
In any case, the breakdown in Spanish would be the same:
Subject: Lo que puede hacer (What he is able to do/the thing that he is able to do)
Adjectival expression: que puede hacer (that he is able to do)
Verb: Es (is)
Attribute: increíble (incredible/unbelievable)
This does not take us far from our original expression:
Es increíble lo que algunas personas pueden pintar.
?It’s unbelievable what some people are able to paint.
?What some people are able to paint is unbelievable.
?What some people are able to paint…it’s unbelievable.
Now we need to take away two things from this discussion. First, “lo que…” is a nominalized expression which acts as the subject in a simple predication, and second, our relative clause, as an adjectival expression, is an integral part of our subject (that is, it is tied directly to the noun phrase which functions as our subject). Because of this, we must describe the noun in terms of its real characteristics. In short, our verb must be conjugated in the indicative in order to describe, assert or declare the characteristic of our noun.
Let’s compare this with a similar expression in which the article “lo” does not intervene:
Es increíble que algunas personas puedan pintar.
It is unbelievable that some people are able to paint.
When it comes to expressions of this nature, it is not uncommon to see the indicative used as the verb form of choice for English translations. While this does not necessarily result in a poor translation, such translations, unfortunately, do not fully enlighten us to the Spanish perspective. To understand the non-focal/non-declarative nature of these expressions, it is often helpful to use an alternative translation. Here, I will point out that in this sentence our noun clause "que algunas personas puedan pintar" does not modify the impersonal subject "it," but acts as a complement to the adjective "increíble." The complement of an adjective is often presented as a prepositional phrase or an infinitive, a fact which allows for a more accurate translation (in terms of perspective) of the original Spanish expression:
Es increíble que algunas personas puedan pintar.
It’s unbelievable for some people to be able to paint.
For some people to be able to paint…it’s unbelievable.
In this form, we see that the information provided by the expression “for some people to be able to paint” is non-focal. By non-focal we do not rely on this statement for its informational content, i.e. it is not being presented as novel information. Instead, the informational content is provided by the declarative statement, “It is unbelievable.” Because we are not making a declaration in regards to the act of “being able to paint,” we choose the subjunctive.
It might further elucidate things if we were to combine our expressions into a single expression:
Es increíble que algunas personas puedan pintar lo que pintan
It is incredible for some people to be able to paint what they paint
It is incredible ? focal/declarative
for some people to be able to paint ? non-focal/non-declarative
The things that we do paint ? focal/declarative
I have a feeling that by the overall length of this discussion, I may have overcomplicated things. In any case, I hope that you find something useful herein.
15 Answers
Lorenzo said:
..... what is a declaration and what is not; something very difficult for native English speakers to understand.
If it can be help to someone, consider the following conversations:
Conversation 1 (indicative)
Speaker 1: Es increíble lo que la gente puede pintar
Speaker 2: ¿En serio alguien ha pintado eso?
Speaker 1: Sí, esto lo ha pintado alguien (lo sé, me parece, creo, me han dicho, es lo más probable, lo he leído, seguramente...) ¿No es increíble?
Conversation 2 (subjunctive)
Speaker 1: Es increíble que la gente pueda pintar estas cosas
Speaker 2: ¿En serio alguien ha pintado eso?
Speaker 1: Bueno, yo no he dicho que alguien lo haya pintado, he dicho que me parece increíble que alguien pueda pintarlo.
English versions:
S1: It's unbelievable what people are able to paint.
S2: Really!? Did anyone paint that?
S1: Yes. This has been painted by someone, isn't it unbelievable?
S1: It's unbelievable that people are able to paint things like this.
S2: Really!? Did anyone paint that?
S1: Well, I didn't say that anyone has painted it, I just said that it's unbelievable that people are able to paint things like that.
Iza, congrats. Hats off for you.
Your explanation is really exhaustive, and it's just perfect from a grammatical point of view. I hope that people appreciate it how it deserves.
I have a question now. Where do we leave the "opinion" part then? Is there a place for it? This was, actually what people found confusing. Both sentences are an opinion, aren't they?
Shall we definitely get rid of the WEIRDO thing once and for all?
What do you think?
It's a real shame that Lazarus is not here to see this. It seems to me that this is a clear proof which shows that the so discussed theory of the declaration actually works.
Ira said:
In my opinion, it's not possible to express, ie: to affirm an opinion unless you use the indicative.
That's it!
It is absolutely true. You won't be able to express an opinion using subjunctive due to its non-declarative nature.
To express opinions: what we think, believe, suppose, guess, imagine... we have the indicative mood. This is the crux, and it implies that when a sentence takes indicative:
...las cosas que la gente puede pintar
this, means that someone thinks that people are able to paint (things)
whereas:
...las cosas que la gente pueda pintar
does not inform about anyone's opinion.
I'll go even further here. If "que la gente pueda pintar" is a fact or not, actually, does not make any difference for choosing one mood or the other.
Indicative has nothing to do with the reality of a fact. It's not indicative's mission to say if something is true or not. Using indicative to declare X only informs us that X is someone's opinion, whether he is right or not.
The sentence:
Es increíble que la gente pueda pintar esas cosas.
has two verbs:
The first one (es) is declarative: I believe that something IS unbelievable (indicative)
...whereas the second one (pueda) is not: I don't want to say that "I believe that people are able to paint those things". "People are able to paint" is not a fact that I can assume. "People are able to paint" is only the issue I'm speaking about. I'm speaking about that issue without even identifying the things that people are able to paint (then--> non-declarative--> subjunctive) .
I can only use indicative to express my opinion about the issue: (Algo) es increíble
The sentence:
Es increíble lo que la gente puede pintar
takes two indicatives, and therefore informs about:
-the speaker thinks that X is unbelievable (es)
-the speaker thinks that someone can paint something (puede), something that is perfectly identified by the speaker. The identifier in the sentence is.... LO.
A few examples for illustrative purposes:
Es importante
Es importante que piense
It’s important that he think.
It’s important for him to think. [non-declarative]
Es importante lo que piensa
It’s important what he thinks.
What he thinks is important. [declarative]
Es malo
Es malo que haya pasado esto
It’s bad that this has happened.
It’s bad for this to have happened. [non-declarative]
Es malo lo que ha pasado.
It’s bad what has happened.
What has happened is bad. [declarative]
Es una lástima
Es una lástima que suceda esto en nuestro pais.
It’s a shame that this goes on in our country
It’s a shame for this to go on in our country [non-declarative]
Es una lástima lo que sucede en nuestro pais.
It’s a shame what goes on in our country.
What goes on in our country is a shame [declarative]
Es increíble
Es increíble que lo hayan logrado
It’s unbelievable that they have achieved it.
It’s unbelievable for them to have achieved it. [non-declarative]
Es increíble lo que han logrado
It’s unbelievable what they have achieved
What they have achieved is unbelievable [declarative]
@Territurtle:
I would like to clarify, at the risk of being tiring, why I don't agree with the use of the word "assertion" instead of "declaration".
I understand assertion as an afirmation, a statement that you believe is true. Whereas the way I understand declaration is slightly different. Declaration can perfectly include your most uncertain suppositions. Besides, declaring does not imply that you think that what you say is true. Very often, there are staments that can technically be declared, but as speaker you choose not to aport that information.
Assertions are always in the indicative in Spanish.
Hmmm... From this point of view, the sentence that Lorenzo provided as example:
Me alegro de que estés aquí
given that for me it's evident and certain the fact that you are here, it should read:
me alegro de que estás aquí
It seems that the assertion concept is not operative.
Is the concept of declaration operative in examples like these? Let's see:
Imagine that you are expecting someone. He should be here at 5.00, but it's 5.20 and he didn't arrive yet. Suddenly, you turn your head and see him crossing the door and coming towards you smiling. What kind of feeling comes to your mind? What kind of information would you like to provide in this circunstance??
a- I want to inform him that he is already here, and I'm happy because of that.
b- I want him to know I'm happy because he's already here, I don't need to inform him about a fact that it's evident for both of us.
Which is the logical answer? I believe most of us would go for b. It's nonsensical, from a declarative point of view, affirming a fact that is so evident for both of us. The normal thing will be, then, choosing not to declare that "you are here", although "you are here" is an assertion. I shall declare my feelings about the fact (me alegro) and will only refer to the fact as the cause for my happiness (de que estés aquí)
If the assertion contains an "opinion," then the subordinate clause may or may not contain a verb in the subjunctive, depending upon other factors.
??? I'm not sure I understand what you mean with "if the assertion contains an opinion", but everything that contains an opinion (yours or not) will invariabily take indicative, without depending on any factor.
The main factor determining whether the subordinate clause is in the subjunctive is exactly what Izanoni stated in his first post in this thread
Izanoni has given a superb and elaborated explanation, because he broke the sentence down in blocks to make the grammatical structure of the sentence easier to understand. However, I believe the conclusion he eventually draw is that the reason is based in the declarative-non declarative nature of the two statements. I tend to think that the use of the subjunctive mood responds to a semantics logic, more than a grammatical one (which would result in overcomplicated analysis)
That's a wonderful explanation, but it's definitely long and complicated.
Es increíble que algunas personas puedan pintar. this is a pure impersonal expression because 'increíble' here refers to a concept or an idea.
Es increíble lo que algunas personas pueden pintar. This is a pure declaration of a fact because 'increíble' refers to what some people can paint i.e their work.
It's beautiful that some people can give to the poor. (Subjunctive in Spanish)
It's beautiful what some people can give to the poor. (Indicative) Why? The beautiful thing (the what) here is the cloth, the help, or whatever some people can give to the poor.
I hope I didn't complicate it further.
Hi Jeezle,
Dude to me that is way too long
Agreed 
Es increíble que
this is how you feel about how it is, and therefore is emotion and therefore is subjunctive, how you feel is subjunctive
Es increíble lo que
this is a statement and therefore not subjunctive as you are simply stating something here
On your first point regarding emotion, the expression "es increíble" which occurs in both cases does not differ in terms of affectation from one phrase to the next. That is to say that "It is unbelievable what he does" and "It is unbelievable that he does it" both elicit the same emotional response: incredulity or awe.
The subjunctive is not used to describe "how you feel." That is to say that the feeling of amazement is described with an indicative verb in the expression "es increíble" and not by the subordinate clause that follows. In these cases, the informational content that is conveyed by the subjunctive is taken for granted, i.e. it is not considered new or focal but secondary in importance to the the emotional response described with the indicative. This is the underlying function of the subjunctive mood in these cases, not to illustrate emotion but to accentuate the relative lack of informational content being conveyed.
For example, the following statements all describe an emotional response:
1). Todos tenemos miedo de lo que está pasando en Honduras.
We are all frightened by what is happening in Honduras.
2). Todos tenemos miedo de ser estereotipado.
We are all afraid of being stereotyped.
3). Todos tenemos miedo de los militares.
We all have fear of the military.
4). Todos tenemos miedo de que la policía siga destruyendo nuestra inversión.
We are all afraid that the police will/might continue destroying our investment.
Each of these expressions uses the indicative to describe the emotional response of fear. Three of these statements use verb phrases to describe the root cause of this emotional response; however, only the last uses the subjunctive to do so. There is no difference from one sentence to the next in regards to the emotional response. In sentence four (4), moreover, the use of the subjunctive does not indicate the emotional response but is used, in this case, to allude to the non-factual or prospective nature of the statement.
Of the four expressions, the second (2) and fourth (4) example sentences above are closest in regards to structure and meaning. Comparing the syntactic arrangement as well as the semantic meaning might help us better understand the non-declarative nature of the subjunctive. For example, compare the following:
1).Tiene miedo de ser equivocado.
He is afraid of being wrong.
Alternatively:
He is afraid to be wrong.
2). Tiene miedo de que sea equivocado
He is afraid that I might be wrong.
Alternatively:
He is afraid for me to be wrong.
The two alternative translation illustrate just how similar the infinitive is to the subjunctive in these cases. Notice that with neither the subjunctive nor the infinitive is it possible to make a declarative statement as to the root cause of the fear. Instead, we are left to mere possibility–it may or may not happen–a prospect which imparts very little in the way of informational content. The bottom line is that the choice of mood is not a function of emotion but of the nature of the informational content expressed by the verb.
Now this deserves to be a reference article! Excellent Izanoni.
I always had a little nagging doubt in my mind about how 'lo que' and 'que' differ. Not anymore!!!!
Billy said:
Now this deserves to be a reference article! Excellent Izanoni.
I agree Ira. As usual, you have taken a complicated concept and broken it down in an organized way so that we can all understand it. You should really be a teacher, if you're not already.
Thanks for taking the time. I know you didn't type this out in two minutes!! 
I am the least qualified person on SD to comment on this thread, but forgive my audacity, please
"It is incredible" is an assertion , i.e., I hereby do assert, declare, and state that ______ [blank] is true (to my knowledge).
Assertions are always in the indicative in Spanish.
If the assertion contains an "opinion," then the subordinate clause may or may not contain a verb in the subjunctive, depending upon other factors.
The main factor determining whether the subordinate clause is in the subjunctive is exactly what Izanoni stated in his first post in this thread
I read Section 25 of MANUAL: Nueva gramática de la lengua española several times, and to my limited understanding, this is pretty much what it said.
I believe the "WEIRDO acronym" is simply a mnemonic devised for beginning learners to help guide them más o menos in the direction of "internalizing" the notion Izanoni was communicating.
I beg my "betters" to make any corrections or offer any suggestions as to where my naive notions have gone awry. 
"It is incredible" is an assertion , i.e., I hereby do assert, declare, and state that ______ [blank] is true (to my knowledge).
Assertions are always in the indicative in Spanish.
If the assertion contains an "opinion," then the subordinate clause may or may not contain a verb in the subjunctive, depending upon other factors.
The main factor determining whether the subordinate clause is in the subjunctive is exactly what Izanoni stated in his first post in this thread "It is incredible" is an assertion , i.e., I hereby do assert, declare, and state that ______ [blank] is true (to my knowledge).
Assertions are always in the indicative in Spanish.
If the assertion contains an "opinion," then the subordinate clause may or may not contain a verb in the subjunctive, depending upon other factors.
The main factor determining whether the subordinate clause is in the subjunctive is exactly what Izanoni stated in his first post in this thread
Opinions are declarations in Spanish, so this has nothing to do with it.
In the original post's examples, only one had a subordinate clause and it did use the subjunctive, but not all subordinate clauses do.
What matters is that you are trying to inform the listener of something you believe to be true (this includes opinions.)
And believe me, understanding what is a declaration and what is not is difficult. I've been struggling with it for almost two years and I'm just starting to get it.
Ira, thank you so much for posting this.
I was also confused about why they are different...this explanation covers it all and makes it perfectly clear!!
Hi Laura:
I have a question now. Where do we leave the "opinion" part then? Is there a place for it? This was, actually what people found confusing. Both sentences are an opinion, aren't they?
I had to go back and revisit the comments left in the original thread to refresh my memory regarding "opinions," but I believe that these are the comments in question:
I hope the subjunctive is needed here, because this would be my opinion and not a fact....I know it is a fact that they can paint that... the opinion part was that I thought it was incredible. Someone else may not think it's incredible.
I am as baffled as you as to why an opinion should play a role in whether or not the subjunctive is chosen:
En mi opinión, el retrato es increíble.
En mi opinión, es increíble lo que algunas personas pueden pintar.
En mi opinión, no es posible expresar, o sea, afirmar una opinión a menos que se use el indicativo.
Thanks so much Iza for taking the time to break it down! Qué esfuerzo!
Dude to me that is way too long and although has good information, the difference between the two phrases is much simpler than that.
Es increíble que this is how you feel about how it is, and therefore is emotion and therefore is subjunctive, how you feel is subjunctive
–vs–
Es increíble lo que this is a statement and therefore not subjunctive as you are simply stating something here
Siento que estás aquí - I can feel that you are here, your presence no emotion.
Siento que estés aquí - I'm sorry that you're here. Emotion.
WEIRDO works.
(quote is not showing up) Where do we leave the "opinion" part then? Is there a place for it? This was, actually what people found confusing.......
Positive opinions are indicative and negative are subjunctive (since there is a tinge of doubt in negative opinions).
Creo que tienes razón
No creo que tengas razón.
As for the theory of declaration, I don't know what that is but if it states that declarative statements are indicative, like the declatative statement: "Es increíble lo que" then I'm on board with it.
This stuff just seems really easy to grasp and I don't see the need for over analyzing it, but I guess that's just because I feel I understand it.
Gracias.
