Me llamo ≠ I call myself

Question

Time to debunk this myth once and for all!

This stone calls itself tourmaline ???? ![alt text][1] No, this "se llama" is not different from the one used for people -it is the same, there is no calling oneself here. People and things are given names and then "se llaman X", even if no one has ever called or even uttered their names once, even if they were all mute. Also, "Me llamo a mí mismo" sounds very odd, because native speakers do not think about calling oneself anything... unless they label themselves something which is not their names. This sentence makes more sense if you call yourself using a telephone. The latest grammar from the Asociación de Academias de la Lengua Española explains: ...se distinguen claramente en castellano el uso pronominal del verbo llamar (Así es como me llamo) y el transitivo (Se llama a sí mismo Campeón). ...Spanish clearly differentiates between the pronominal use of the verb llamar (Me llamo X = My name is X) and the transitive one (Se llama a sí mismo Campeón = He calls himself Campeón) Summing up: in my opinion, when someone asks what does "Me llamo" mean, it wouldn't hurt to briefly explain that that sentence is using a verb that has no equivalent in English, so the best alternative is to completely rephrase it as "My name is", which sounds as natural in English as "Me llamo" in Spanish. The literal translation might appear to be "I call myself", but Spanish people only interpret it that way for nicknames and other labels; the rest of the time, when they use it for their real name, native speakers don't perceive any reflexiveness in that "me". There are countless situations where there is "me" and no reflexivity, like in "Me caigo", where you are not falling yourself. [1]: http://bocaberta.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/gem-paraiba-tourmaline.jpg" />

• I think you're making things unessisarily confusing. I don't see how this information helps anyone speak Spanish. It's very abstract. - rabbitwho Sep 4, 2011
• I disagree with rabbitwho. I really appreciate this explanation. Some things look like they translate, but don't. I always appreciate the "just memorize it," lessons. This is one. - JoyceM Sep 4, 2011
• I disagree with rabbitwho also, in this case, no hard feelings :*. Your insights are always appreciated, Laz. - Vikingo Sep 4, 2011
• Sorry Rabbit, I completely disagree with you. I find it really helpful. - billygoat Sep 4, 2011
• We need more posts like this one. - lorenzo9 Sep 4, 2011
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Answer 1

I think you're making things unessisarily confusing. I don't see how this information helps anyone speak Spanish. It's very abstract.

That wasn't my intention. I believe that you have to think like a native if you want to learn a language correctly, and if you think that "me llamo" is the same as "I call myslef", you are not thinking like a native... at all! You've got the wrong idea.

I don't see your point Lazarus. Literally it translates as "I call myself". Everyone knows it actually means "My name is".

Everybody? I am not so sure. Most people are unaware that there is no myself in the mind of a native speaker with your own name, and adding "a mí mismo" (=myself) would make the sentence sound ridiculous.

The only true translations are proper nouns, surely?

Do you think that the RAE and all other academies of Spanish from 22 countries are all wrong too? (read the extract I quoted). I am positively sure about this. Grammars clearly explain that this SE in "llamarse" is part of the verb, which is is intransitive (i.e. you are not calling anyone), and its meaning is close to a copulative verb, i.e. Me llamo X ≈ Soy X. In fact, when you are introducing yourself, you can say "Encantado, soy X" as well as "Encantado, me llamo X" with the same intention, but you would sound stupid if you said "Encantado, me llamo X a mí mismo".

• Have you ever heard a beginner say "Me llamo X a mi mismo" every single book and website I've used has given this translation. Okay. They're all wrong. That's fine with me. But there is a reason for simplifying things. - rabbitwho Sep 4, 2011
• Maybe I over-complicated things for you. Just ignore it then. - lazarus1907 Sep 4, 2011
• I agree that this is interesting in this context. But the context where this originally arose was with a complete beginner learning her first sentence in Spanish: http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/204076/llamollama - rabbitwho Sep 4, 2011
• Just to help you Lazarus there are two words ''is'' on line 3:i quote; ''is part of the verb, which ''is is'' intransitive '' - FELIZ77 Sep 4, 2011
• Everybody? I am not so sure. Most people are unaware that there is no myself in the mind of a native speaker with your own name - 5point Sep 5, 2011
View 1 more commments >>

Answer 2

Rabbit said:

I think you're making things unessisarily (sic) confusing.

I have never seen a teacher who has made things as perfectly clear, concise, and straight-forward as Lazarus. Many of us are waiting for his book!

Rabbit further said:

I don't see how this information helps anyone speak Spanish.

How could it not help to know that your literal translation is off? That's like saying "I don't care about the history of the language or the culture...I just want to speak Spanish." Both the history and the culture teach us why things are said as they are and help us to avoid the pitfalls of translating literally from our mother tongue to the second language.

• Okay okay okay! I just think it's confusing for beginners! - rabbitwho Sep 4, 2011

Answer 3

I always appreciate your input. I like the way you take language down to the nuts and bolts, and I find it useful to avoid literal translation. My goal, lofty as it may be, is to think like a native. At my age and given my circumstances I may never reach my goal, but I'm enjoying the journey. That's why I call your post "brain candy."

Answer 4

Nice explanation. I've never thought about the "missing verb" explanation. I always thought it was just a case of impassive verbs - "I am called...".

• Me too. - ian-hill Sep 4, 2011
• Yes, me, too. I thought it meant, "I'm called X." My second language translates to English like that, so I thought of the Spanish the same way. - MrSillyInc Sep 6, 2011

Answer 5

Russian has the same word as Spanish, and uses it the same way:

Меня зовут where "Меня" is a form of I, just like "me" is a form of "yo;" and

зовут is the same as "llamo" in Spanish.

Up until I read Lazarus's post, I would hesitate when using my "first learned" sentence because I was "translating back and forth."

Lazarus's posts continue to help me to "think" in Spanish.

And today, for the first time in 35 years, I got it!!.

I also know those coming from a language where the definite and indefinite articles are absent, find it virtually impossible to use them correctly. However, when I started explaining "how we thought/what we heard to a special few, within days they were using them flawlessly.

You can bet your bottom dollar we are standing in line for Lazarus's book!

Because we know he is the only one at present who can help us cross the "continental divide" between speaking and "thinking as a native" in Spanish.

His writing style has fewer ambiguities, and is clearer and easier to understand than just about any other wordsmith I know in the English language.

Bring on your book, Lazarus!!

• I know (that) I want to have one. - One can leave out the "that" in English in this sentence. - ian-hill Sep 4, 2011
• But it is hardly worth teaching why and how because it is always correct when left in. - ian-hill Sep 4, 2011
• Thank you immensely, Ian. I do know the rules, yet blatantly disregard them here at SD. The rule in question, along with a few others where I'm feigning ignorance, are my way of "attempting to fit in." Sorry. - territurtle Sep 4, 2011
• I was going to include зовут, but I wasn't sure. It doesn't seem to be directly related to the Germanic or Italic roots, but the usage seems identical. - lazarus1907 Sep 5, 2011
• As usual, you are absolutely correct! Russian belongs to the Slavic language group, a subgroup of the Germanic. I'm not sure about other Slavic languages, but Belorussian, Ukrainian and other closely linked ones do have the same завут type construction. - territurtle Sep 6, 2011

Answer 6

I don't see your point Lazarus. Literally it translates as "I call myself". Everyone knows it actually means "My name is".

I don't think anybody assumes it has the meaning it would have in English, e.g. my name is Rebecca but I call myself RabbitWho online.

The only true translations are proper nouns, surely?

Answer 7

I don't see your point Lazarus. Literally it translates as "I call myself". Everyone knows it actually means "My name is".

Everyone? Some of us understand this but I believe Laz was simply trying (and did a great job at it) to teach us the why of the phrase. The verb can be confusing to others and to make a blanket statement like this (Everyone...) is absurd. If you didn't "get" anything out of this thread then feel free to skip it. I personally did get something out of it and I want to thank Lazarus for posting it. The "loss" of the verb in English was something I didn't even know we had a one time. Look Rabbitwho, you can post, of course, anything you want but try to understand that not everybody knows something as "simple" as this. Have a great day everybody!!

• :-) - --Mariana-- Sep 4, 2011
• Great response :) - FELIZ77 Sep 4, 2011

Answer 8

Thank you Lazarus. I have always given people the 'correct' literal translation, which I now know is not correct

I am amazed at your ability to make things stunningly clear.

Answer 9

I have some sympathy for rabbitwho here.

The very interesting explanation given by Lazarus is fantastic in its content and intention.

However if I had to go to that length to understand and / or use all "pairs" of words - I think I would have "given up" a long time ago.

I speak Danish "Jeg heder Ian" - "I am called Ian" - similar to the Swedish "heter" - mentioned by Lazarus.

I always just thought of this verb as "to be called" and therefore in the small group of "to be" verbs in English - "to be born" for example. "Nacer does not exist in English either.

• Right! To be born is very odd, the books treat it as passive but I don't think native speakers think of it iin that way. I think of it as something I did or something that happened, not something that was done to me by my mother. - rabbitwho Sep 4, 2011
• And when we learned "Ich heisse" in german class we learned it as "I am called" as well. To stop people saying "Mein heist ist" or something mad like that. - rabbitwho Sep 4, 2011
• Rabbit: You might want to ask your mother her opinion of your contribution to the effort versus hers. I'd bet she thinks she did all the work. - samdie Sep 5, 2011
• Yes, just like KevinB, I thought of the translation as, "I am called X." Speaking a non-English helps understand this, I think. - MrSillyInc Sep 6, 2011

Answer 10

Guys can I just specify again that I have no problem with this thread or this knowledge I was just making the point that saying it to a complete beginner is counter productive.

http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/204076/llamollama

In the above thread I explained it as I learned it. Every single Spanish resource explains it this way. Lazarus said that was wrong. I asked him how. I continued the discussion in this thread and then somehow that came across as me disagreeing with all of what he said. What I really meant, or at least what I think I meant, was that this is not something that Foadle and people like her need to know yet. This is a linguistic thing, it's not a language learning thing.

Why does everything on the internet always have to turn into an argument?

• Rabbit: this is one of the best threads on the matter I've ever seen. Some resources for beginners tend to oversimplify things, with the result that when people progress on learning, struggle over and over with the same issue. - cogumela Sep 4, 2011
• I'd be glad to learn things in the right way from the beginning. This is not a linguistics thing, but a treasure of information that few people bother to write or explain, and really apt for this forum, by the way. - cogumela Sep 4, 2011
• However, I understand you, as well as your sensation when reading things that break off your mental schemes. On the other hand, I didn't read this as an argument, but as a very productive thread. ¡Un abrazo! :) - cogumela Sep 4, 2011
• Abrazos bonita :) - rabbitwho Sep 4, 2011

Answer 11

I have a very different view than Rabbit; this was very helpful in my quest to not translate literally from one language to another.

Lazarus said:

...native speakers don't perceive any reflexiveness in that "me". There are countless situations where there is "me" and no reflexivity, like in "Me caigo", where you are not falling yourself...

Great...that's easy to remember.

And then further on:

... this SE in "llamarse" is part of the verb, which is is intransitive (i.e. you are not calling anyone), and its meaning is close to a copulative verb...

Perfect...I like this explanation that it's simply part of the verb and no need to try and force it to be something it's not, e.g., reflexive.

• Hey my thoughts exactly! We were typing at the same time..... :) besos y abrazos guapa - Jason7R Sep 4, 2011

Answer 12

Sorry, but I have nothing of value to contribute here. Just staring at the immensity between what I think I know of Spanish and the reality of what is going on. Thank you for the perspective view.

• I feel that way about English quite often too. o.O - rabbitwho Sep 5, 2011
• :D Thanks for the empathy! This has been a very interesting thread. - estudiante98 Sep 5, 2011

Answer 13

Very clear, and very useful, Lazarus. I will remember this. Thank you for all of your wonderful posts.

Answer 14

Excellent, thank you Lazarus. I find this sort of explanation really helpful. One of the things I am trying to master currently is to not translate literally. Its difficult because I have never studied a foreign language before and I am getting on in years lol so my brain is well and truly hard-wired to English.

Answer 15

I "myself" think, I wonder if the "myself" here fits anywhere within Lazarus's explanation, that the main point of this thread is to get us thinking like a Spaniard and not to keep literally comparing English to Spanish.

• Perfect post, Eddy! - territurtle Sep 5, 2011
• Well, me / I myself personally agree with you.Eddy :) - ian-hill Sep 5, 2011