..que les desafían

Question

My word of the day correction didn't make sense until now. I think I've cracked it.

Me gustan los caracoles pequeños porque si mirases el mundo desde su perspectiva verías todo de las cosas grandes que les desafían cada día.

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Forgetting the rest and just taking this part:

...que les desafían

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meaning: that challenge them

to make it simpler for me to understand I put it like this.

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It challenges them

it - d.object pronoun

them - i.d.object pronoun

So you use "les" for them instead of "los" as it is an indirect object pronoun.

Is this right?

"It" would be the subject. - Azabache, Apr 28, 2011

is the subject different to the direct object pronoun? - dewclaw, Apr 28, 2011

Quite different. "it" is what is doing the challenging. - samdie, Apr 28, 2011

Answer 1

Q is correct in regards to las cosas grandes is the subject of "que les desafían cada día."

The word 'que' acts as a proxy for 'las cosas grandes.'

Consider an example in English...

Bob is the man that hit my son.

Zoom in on the clause..."that hit my son."

The verb is "hit," the object (the one who received the hitting action) is "my son,"...so who's the subject?

The man. That is used as a proxy for "the man" (so literally "that" is the subject, but we know that in such clauses "that" is standing in (acting as a proxy) for something else.

Does that makes sense?

Answer 2

que les desafían

The big things that challenge them (that are challenging to them)

les = los

If I am not mistaken, this should really be los, even though nobody here ever uses los here

les/los = direct object

Ellos son desafiados por las grandes cosas.....

In Spanish only direct objects can be patient subjects in the passive form.

If I am not mistaken, this should really be los, even though nobody here ever uses los here. That is exactly the kind of answer that I was expecting. - 0074b507, Apr 28, 2011

Answer 3

I think Tú is the subject and Las cosas grandes is the direct object of the dependent clause. Que les desafían is descriptive and not an object in this clause.

Answer 4

I didn't know that word and I'm wondering why, if it's spelled "desafiar" and not "desafíar", does it take an í in its conjugations, instead of a regular i like in "estudiar". Is this an irregular pronunciation or is there something I'm missing?

It's like the verb "enviar"; no tilde over the "i". But in its conjugations, it's: Envío, envías, etc. - Azabache, Apr 28, 2011

So it's just an irregularity in those verbs, then? Because you don't say envíar or desafíar... you say them the same as estudiar, but in their conjugated forms, they are special? - Luciente, Apr 28, 2011

(And that it only happens in their present tense form? So just something to memorize?) - Luciente, Apr 28, 2011

Answer 5

las cosas grandes que les desafían cada día.

The intuitive idea connecting subject with direct and indirect object is that the subject initiates the action, the direct object is directly receiving it if he/she/it is the intended target of the action, and the indirect object is secondary, for it is either as the recipient of the the object, or it is unintentionally affected by an inactive subject.

Transitive verbs that have an emotional impact on people are a special case, because a sentence like "I scared him", we can take him to be our intentional target (i.e. we wanted him to be scared) by using the direct object, or we can say that he got scared because of me, even if it wasn't my intention (I'm just that ugly), by using an indirect object. While using either construction helps to make fine distinctions like these, in practice, different speakers have different preferences towards one object or the other depending on the verb, and the logical rule I've just stated here sometimes has little value. On one hand, there are syntactic reasons to use "lo/la" with transitive verbs, but on the other one, there are reasons to use "le" to indicate involuntariness or lack of active involvement in the action.

So "big things" surely have no express intentions to actively challenge anyone; instead, people might feel emotionally challenged by them, so an indirect object pronoun (le) actually makes sense in this case. However, don't be surprised if you also see "lo/la" here, which is the matching pronoun according to its syntax.

A verb like "atropellar" has no emotional impact; it is a verb involving motion and physical transfer of energy, so generally it is used with "lo/la", as expected, but I have some literary examples from Spanish writers where "le" is used instead. I have no information about how common is "leísmo" in USA with this verb, but in Spain is not uncommon.

Clear and fantastic explanation as usual. Thank you very much. - 0074b507, Apr 29, 2011

Answer 6

forget the "it"

las cosas grandes que..... The que..... is a relative clause modifying las cosas grandes.

That is the subject. That is what challenges them. There is no it. That is why desafían is plural. If anything, it is: the large things [they] are challenging to them.

This almost looks like a gustar-like situation. To them are challenging large things.

However, for that to be true, desafiar would have to be intransitive, and our dictionary lists it as a transitive verb.

I wonder if we are missing a detransitizing se.

I know there is no "it" . so you are saying that las cosas grandes are the direct object pronoun and is kind of disguised by the "que" (modified)? Does a sentence always have to have a D.O.P if it has a I.D.O.P? - dewclaw, Apr 28, 2011

No large things are the subject of the verb. - 0074b507, Apr 28, 2011

omg, you are wandering jaja... bueeeeno. I'm not sure if you read my above comment. - dewclaw, Apr 28, 2011

What I am wondering is if the sentence is correct. - 0074b507, Apr 28, 2011

In English an i.o. without a d.o. is rare. In Spanish it is common. Any intransitive sentnence like gustar has an i.o. and no d.o. - 0074b507, Apr 28, 2011

Me encantas. You are enchanting to me. No d.o. only an i.o. encantar is an intransitive verb. desafiar, however, is not, which is why I am wondering why it seems to be being used as one in our sentence. - 0074b507, Apr 28, 2011

My guess, either it should be los or we need a "se"" so rather that say large thing challenge them you are saying they are challenged by large things (passive voice) no d.o. there - 0074b507, Apr 28, 2011

let's wait for a native to chime in. BTW-intransitive means no d.o. transitive means there is a d.o. - 0074b507, Apr 28, 2011