Neither... nor ...singular?
Hello! I have a silly doubt, could you help me?
Which of these sentences is correct?
Neither Peter nor Mary likes beer
Neither Peter nor Mary like beer
I just have seen written the first one, is this a mistake?
In case the first one is right, how do you say...?
Ni tú ni yo somos capaces de hacer algo así.
I would say: Neither you nor I/me? are able to do something like that.
Thanks in advance!
10 Answers
I would say "Neither Peter nor Mary like beer"
Peter + Mary = plural and therefore not 3rd person singular likes.
This would be a copulative effect and would require an appropriate copulative conjunction:
(Both) Peter and Mary dislike beer
A disjunctive on the other hand deals with each individually or denotes a separation, so each must be considered singularly with the subject-verb agreement being decided by the nominative closest to the verb:
Neither Peter nor Mary likes beer
"Neither. . .nor. . ." has the verb conjugated to match the second subject, in this case it is the 3rd person singular "Mary likes".
It should be noted that there is some disagreement on this among grammarians, with some saying the plural should be used if either of the subjects is plural.
More comments:
This is frequently done incorrectly by native speakers, and you are just as likely to here like as likes in spoken usage.
Even more disturbing is the fact that the grammatically correct constructs are actually:
Neither you nor I am. . .
Neither he nor I am. . .
Even the strict grammarians admit that both of these sound terrible and would rarely, if ever, be spoken by a native--personally, I would use "are" in the first and "is" in the second--and one grammarian admitted that he always puts I as the first subject to avoid this problem.
Note: This discussion primarily focuses on what is correct in terms of proper grammar in terms of formal writing. As has been alluded to previously, differences exist between what is spoken and what is written. However, it is also probably true that such variations frequently occur due to a lack of understanding on the part of the speaker as to the difference in function that the different types of conjunctions are (traditionally) meant to impart.
Bomberpolac said:
"(...) When singular subjects are connected by neither...nor , the verb is normally singular, but it can be plural in a less careful style. Neither James nor Virginia was at home (normal) Neither James nor Virginia were at home (less careful)"
Well, that's all what he says on this subject. To me, the question is what "a less careful style" exactly means.
What the author is referring to as a "less careful style" is using the correlative conjunction "neither...nor" in a way in which it was not designed.
A little grammar review might be in order before I continue.
Conjunctions are words such as and, or, neither, nor which join two elements of equal rank (such as two nouns, two verbs, etc) neither of which is dependent on the other. Conjunctions are often divided into two functional groups: copulative or disjunctive.
Copulative conjunctions serve to connect words or clauses so as to continue a sentence by expressing an addition, a supposition, a cause or a consequence. Examples of copulative conjunctions are and, as, both, because, even, for, if, that, then, since, so
Disjunctive conjunctions denote separation and are sometimes (by certain authors) further subdivided as being adversative if they denote opposition as well as separation. Disjunctive conjunctions serve not only to continue a sentence by connecting its parts but also to express opposition of meaning, either real or nominal. Examples of disjunctive conjunctions include: or, nor, either, neither, than, though, whether, lest, unless, yet, save, provided, notwithstanding, whereas.
Corresponsive conjunctions are those which are used in pairs, so the latter answers to the former. These include: Both...and; as...as; as...so; if...then; either...or; neither...nor; though...yet; although...yet; whether...or. Corresponsive conjunctions can be either conjunctive or copulative in nature.
Rules governing agreement between subject and verb vary between disjunctive and copulative conjunctions and are meant to reflect the distinct purpose for which each is meant to be used.
As one author puts it, "conjunctions, [whether they are] copulative or disjunctive, affirmative or negative, must be used with due regard to their own import, and to the true idiom of the language." That is, it is important to maintain the distinction between the conjunctive or disjunctive nature of the respective terms (including agreement between subject/verb and pronoun/antecedent) throughout a sentence.
For example
Incorrect Mixing
It must indeed be confessed that a lampoon or a satire do not carry in them robbery or murder
Copulative effect (pluralizes the subject):
It must indeed be confessed that a lampoon and a satire do not carry in them robbery or murder.
Disjunctive effect (subjects taken individually):
It must indeed be confessed that neither a lampoon nor a satire carries in it robbery or murder.
Incorrect Mixing
Copulative effect (pluralizes the subject):
Disjunctive effect (subjects taken individually):
Disjunctive effect (subjects taken individually):
Ian said:
Neither you nor I are able .......... (again plural and the use of "are" and not "is")
There is a faulty comparison here in that the verb "is" would not be used with either of the pronouns "you" or "I" (compare "You is able..." and "I is able...") The correct verb in this case would be "am," as in:
"Neither you nor I am able to make a compromise on this issue."
While this would be considered the correct verb form to use for a disjunctive corresponsive conjunction (see my response to Bomberpolac above for a fuller discussion), many authors also point out that when there is a change in either number or person in a compound subject (as occurs above) it is often preferable to rearrange the sentence so as to avoid this type of construct. For example, the sentence above could be rearranged in one of the following ways:
(1)."Neither you nor I can make a compromise on this issue." [here the modal auxiliary "could" agrees in number and person with both "you" and "I"]
(2). "A compromise was able to be made by neither you nor I." [somewhat stiff]
(3) "A compromise was unable to be reached by either you or I." [alt form of (2) above]
(4). "Neither of us was able to reach a compromise." [Here both subjects are combined and the distinction is supplied by context (previously made explicit; i.e. it has already been made clear who "us" refers to.)]
However, in formal writing it would be considered incorrect form to say:
Incorrect Number Agreement
Neither he nor they is able to reach a compromise.
Incorrect Person Agreement
Neither he nor I is able to reach
These would be considered incorrect because subject-verb agreement in these types of constructs is dictated by the noun or pronoun closest to the verb.
This brings me to the assertion brought up by certain grammarians in Lorenzo's post regarding the following:
Neither you nor I am. . .
Neither he nor I am. . .
And the contention that:
strict grammarians admit that both of these sound terrible and would rarely, if ever, be spoken by a native--personally, I would use "are" in the first and "is" in the second--and one grammarian admitted that he always puts I as the first subject to avoid this problem.
What is disturbing to me is that a "so-called" grammarian (and this is meant as no slight towards Lorenzo) who (should) actually understand the difference between a copulative and disjunctive function would rearrange a sentence to favor such a faulty or ungrammatical construct as described above.
As to the first contention that "are" be used in place of "am" it is likely that in such cases it would be better to instead replace the disjunctive with an appropriate copulative conjunction. For example, compare the following:
Disjunctive effect
Here "neither" refers to two distinct entities taken separately (the two terms are placed in opposition or evaluated as a separate entity) and subject verb agreement must correspond to this fact
?Neither you nor I am a dog
?Neither of us is a dog
Copulative effect
Here a copulative is used "additively" and (with few exceptions) requires a plural verb form.
?You and I are not dogs
?We are not dogs
Compare this with the affirmative form:
Disjunctive effect
Here "either" refers to two distinct entities taken separately (the two terms are placed in opposition) and subject verb agreement must correspond to this fact
?Either you or I am a dog [one of us is, but not both of us]
Copulative effect
Here a copulative is used "additively" and (with few exceptions) requires a plural verb form
?You and I are dogs [both subjects are dogs]
?We are dogs
Mixed pairing
?Either you or I are dogs [clear ungrammaticality]
?Neither you nor I are dogs
In the last example of mixed pairing above, the semantic result of the statement is along the lines of saying:
You are not a dog and neither am I.
Hopefully it is clear from the examples above that when the author of such a statement tries to replace a singular verb with a plural verb form, what he is in fact doing is trying to force a copulative meaning onto a disjunctive conjunction. That is, he is attempting to force a disjunctive conjunction to carry out the function of a copulative conjunction, an attempt that oftentimes results in ungrammaticality.
The author's second contention (that "is" be used in place of "am") might also be construed as an error which hopefully can be made clear by the illustrative use of parenthesis as in the following examples:
Satisfactory pairing
The verb am pairs with the closest pronoun (in this case "I")
?(Neither he nor) I am a dog
Unsatisfactory pairing
The verb is pairs with the closest pronoun (in this case "I") resulting in ungrammaticality:
?(Neither he nor) I is a dog
I just want to point out that again that while this distinction should certainly be maintained in formal writing, in colloquial speech you will often find cases where it is not. For example, it would probably not be altogether uncommon to hear either a plural or singular verb form combined with the disjunctive "neither" ?
?Neither (of the boys) was invited [correct]
?Neither (of the boys) were invited [colloquial/copulative]
?Neither (of them) has my blessing [correct]
?Neither (of them) have my blessing [colloquial/copulative]
In this case, as was true above, the colloquial sentence forces a copulative meaning onto the subject (even so, the singular should typically be considered considered correct).
Oftentimes, this colloquial (mis?)usage is more difficult to apply when meant to convey an affirmative rather than negative meaning:
?Either Donald or Jeremy has the egg [correct]
?Either Donald or Jeremy have the egg [incorrect]
?Neither Donald nor Jeremy has the egg [correct]
?Neither Donald nor Jeremy have the egg [incorrect but colloquial]
Well, dear Natives, I'd like to quote an excerpt from the book entitled "Practical English Usage" by Michael Swan (a renowned grammarian)
"(...) When singular subjects are connected by neither...nor , the verb is normally singular, but it can be plural in a less careful style. Neither James nor Virginia was at home (normal) Neither James nor Virginia were at home (less careful)"
Well, that's all what he says on this subject. To me, the question is what "a less careful style" exactly means. 
Cogumela said
In Spanish it does not work the same. Ni a X ni a Y les gusta la cerveza. Subject is plural: (a ninguno de nosotros ) I think, I don't dare to affirm it
This appears to coincide with what the RAE (Nueva gramática de la lengu española) has to say on the matter:
Las [cojunciones] compuestas, pueden ser las dos:
?Copulativas ? ni...ni; tanto...como...; tanto...cuanto...; así...como...
?Disyuntivas/Distributivas ? sea...sea...; ya...ya...; ora...ora...; bien...bien...;o...o...
It further goes on to say that:
El resultado de coordinar dos o más grupos nominales mediante una conjunción copulativa es un grupo sintáctico que tiene las propiedades de una expresión nominal con rasgos de plural
This also coincides with the way that copulatives work in English. It seems that the main difference between the use of "neither...nor" and "ni...ni" is that the pair in English fulfills a disjunctive role within a sentence; whereas, the pair in Spanish plays a copulative role and requires the plural (I will leave it up to someone with a bit more experience in Spanish grammar to assert whether or not this is the only difference).
What you say is correct as far as grammar, but disagrees with common usgae. It is only a matter of time before the rules change to reflect that, since in the cases using "am" the correct usage is probably less than 1%
Generally speaking, you are probably right (this is, perhaps, an example of Greshams's law). However, there are also countless examples of phrases/constructions that that enjoyed a brief period of popular usage only to be discarded later. One of the blessings/curses of Guttengerg, is that we now have a substantial, long-lived, record of usage. In Orwelll's world this record would simply be erased/modified to reflect current/approved "reality".
On the whole I agree, the general tendency is towards ti dumbing-down of language. Preserving all these subtle distinctions is a nuisance. If pigs can communicate by grunting, why shouldn't we?
if pigs can commuticate bu grunting, why whouldn't we?
I would say "Neither Peter nor Mary like beer"
Peter + Mary = plural and therefore not 3rd person singular likes.
Neither you nor I are able .......... (again plural and the use of "are" and not "is")
However, it seems that Lorenzo is right. Thefreedictionary.com says: "As with either … or , the verb usually follows the noun or pronoun that comes closest to it: Neither Kate nor Susan is responsible ; Neither she nor her children speak English"
I hate to disagree with Ian, but I would certainly say, "Neither Peter nor Mary likes beer." as you are saying, "Neither one of them likes beer." (singular).
That being said, you will hear it both ways and no one's head will turn if either is said.
On the other hand, it does "sound" much better to say, "Neither you or I are able to do something like that."
This is not a silly question, but it is something that is not worth worrying about since the "rule" is not commonly followed.
I think it would be 'neither of us would be able to do something like that'.
