Of Subjunctive...

Question

So, for this week's Thursday Chat, I am charged with leading a group of us on the many and confusing forms of the subjunctive, what it means, and where/when to use it. What I would like from those of you attending (As well as those of us not attending), is to put your questions that you have about the subjuntcive here, and I will have an answer waiting for you tomorrow, with some examples and a little time for discussion. Please watch yourselves here, and keep posts grammatically correct.

For those of you that wish for additional information on the subjuntcive, I will have a link posted in here later today where you can go to download the 12 page packet I have compiled of the different worksheets and "cheat sheets" that have been given to me throughout my learning proccess. All of the materials enclosed are either property of DLI-FLC or the staff therein, and therefore should not be "reproduced" or sold to anyone. (Just a disclaimer)

Please feel free to post a comment ON someone else's answer to give them an explanation if you so desire. Please DO NOT post additional answers answering someone else's question.

I would like this to be as uniform and squared away (Neat and tidy for those non-military folks) as possible. Also, feel free to PM me with any other questions/desires that you have about the subjunctive or any other learning topics/methods. I learned from the best and it would be a waste of taxpayer money to not share that education with the world.

Packet of Subjunctive Goodies

FOR ALL OF YOU, THE USERNAME IS Rockdown668, THE PASSWORD IS trombone6.

Thanks, Rock, this is great! - --Mariana--, Jul 28, 2010

Link works--thanks so much for this! - Pajaro44, Jul 28, 2010

Link works, and I downloaded "Day_19__hour_2.docx" but I have nothing that opens this binary file. Windows XP, Word 2002. Instructions, please? - pesta, Jul 28, 2010

should be a compatible file. Lemme check and get back to you. - rockdown667, Jul 28, 2010

I had the same problem, but another "word processor" should be able to open it. Xp 2002 is pretty old tho =p. Just try opening it on notepad. - rockdown667, Jul 28, 2010

I was able to open the attachment with a later version of Word. Notepad won't do it. You could in future do everyone a favor and save the file "Save As..." to an earlier Word format and thus make it more universally available to open. Thanks. - pesta, Jul 29, 2010

Answer 1

The link for the 12 page packet I have compiled is now up by the main post. If you desire, download it (it's from my own account, no viruses here =p) and check it out. This is what will be used on Thursday's chat, so if you plan to attend please pick it up now to save time. Also, any questions about any content of the packet can be posted here, or sent to me via PM.

Thanks for everyone's time/interest.

Thanks for Y O U R time, rock!!! - patch, Jul 28, 2010

Hi Rock, when I followed your link to the 12 page packet the site asked for my log-in and password. It also gave an option to sign-up for a free 30 day account, but I couldn't get the link for that to work for me. - Pajaro44, Jul 28, 2010

username and password are up in the main post. Thanks for the heads up =p - rockdown667, Jul 28, 2010

Answer 2

man you guy's are deep !

I'm learning a lot by following you guy's.

so be patient with me?

My mind my heart and soul are listening....

This is pretty advanced stuff, warvic. Don't worry if you don't get it all at once :-) - patch, Jul 28, 2010

Answer 3

Quiero que (yo) nade mañana - I want me to swim tomorrow

This would not only not be used, but completely wrong.

Noi, Izan, this does not have a different meaning, it is simply wrong.

?Quiero que (yo) nade mañana - I want that I (might) swim tomorrow

Quiero que nade mañana....I want her / him to swim...

oh, jeje, I see now that you were saying just that, well, just as well, I leave it posted - 00494d19, Jul 29, 2010

Answer 4

I have seen a different acronym flying around called "wierdo", but the way I always learned was "Wedding" as illustrated here.

W- Wishes/Wants Quiero que tenga un buen día.

E- Emotions Estoy triste que esté llorando.

D- Doubts Dudo que él venga antes de la lluvia.

D- Desires Espero que haya helado en ese mercado.

I- Interrogative/Impersonal ¿Hay una persona aquí que pueda hablar inglés?

N- Negative No creo que ella pueda gritar con más fuerza.

G- God Clause Ojalá que él escarmiente, y nunca lo hace de nuevo.

This is a very general list, but just something else to keep in mind while learning.

Love it! - globos-rojos, Jul 28, 2010

Answer 5

Expressing doubt or uncertainty is a hard one for me, it always needs a subjunctive but I never know when I'm expressing it I know one example is,

"Unas personas quieren que ayude" Some people want him to help. With the some expressing uncertainty.. I guess.

But this is definatly something I find difficult when speaking. Any tips on how to make it easier?

Gracias

That example isn't subjunctive because of uncertainty. Ayude is subjunctive because it is expressing their desire that he help. They want him to help. - MacFadden, Jul 28, 2010

Nice use of English subjunctive there, MacFadden ;) - patch, Jul 28, 2010

lol even more confused - globos-rojos, Jul 28, 2010

Answer 6

Espero que yo pueda nadar manaña

This does not seem like something that would be used much. When the subject is the same in both clauses, using the subjunctive rather than the infinitive creates an unnecessary redundancy (i.e. it is unnecessary to repeat the subject twice). I am not entirely sure that it would be entirely incorrect to use the subjunctive here, but it certainly would be much more common and less awkward to use the infinitive when the subject remains the same:

Espero poder nadar mañana

In English, even though we often use an infinitive or modal auxiliary to convey a subjunctive meaning, you can still see by the following sets of examples that it is often more economic (and preferred) to avoid this redundancy that using the subjunctive causes in favor of an equivalent expression using the infinitive.

?Espero que yo pueda nadar mañana - I hope that I (might) be able to go swimming tomorrow

compare with

?Espero poder nadar mañana - I hope to be able to go swimming tomorrow

---

?Espera que (ella) pueda nadar mañana - She hopes that she (might) be able to go swimming tomorrow.

compare with

?Espera poder nadar mañana - She hopes to be able to go swimming tomorrow

---

?Quiero que (yo) nade mañana - I want that I (might) swim tomorrow

compare with

?Quiero nadar mañana - I want to swim tomorrow

---

?(ella) Quiere que (ella) nade mañana - She wants that she (might) swim tomorrow

compar with

?Quiere nadar mañana - She wants to swim tomorrow.

---

Consider, also, these examples which use only the infinitive to convey the subjunctive:

?Quiero que nades mañana - I want you to swim tomorrow.

?Quiere que (yo) nade mañana - He wants me to swim tomorrow.

?Quiero que (ella) nade mañana - I want her to swim tomorrow.

Pay attention to the form of the pronoun in the English translation, and now look at the effect of repeating the subject unnecessarily in English.

?Quiero que (yo) nade mañana - I want me to swim tomorrow

?Quieres que nades mañana - You want you to swim tomorrow

?(ella) Quiere que (ella) nade mañana - She wants her (herself) to swim tomorrow.

Hopefully, this brings home the awkwardness in sentence construction that occurs by unnecessarily employing the subjunctive when a simple infinitive would suffice. In both English and Spanish, the sentences can be understood, but they are also much more awkward to say.

It is actually used quite a bit in "street" spanish. Unfortunatley, not every speaker is educated at the level the RAE would like. But, you are correct in saying that it is a *redundancy*, but do not count it out as something that no one uses. - rockdown667, Jul 29, 2010

Most of the native speakers I hear/talk to every day will use this form, because for them there are words that trigger the subjunctive. The RAE does say that you would say espero poder nadar, but like I said, when it comes down to it, it's about learning - rockdown667, Jul 29, 2010

the different styles, and how it is used in TODAY's language. - rockdown667, Jul 29, 2010

If you look at what Heidita says on the matter, you will see that other hispanohablantes would disagree with your contention. I'm not sure about you, but when I speak English, I don't think in terms of "what might trigger the subjunctive." Instead... - Izanoni1, Jul 29, 2010

...as a native speaker, my speech patterns are very much formed on the basis of my first-hand exposure to the language as are all native speakers. Because of this, each native speaker has an intuitive understanding of grammar, so just as I might find a.. - Izanoni1, Jul 29, 2010

sentence like "I want me to be able to go swimming tomorrow" to sound a bit off, so too, I imagine would a native Spanish speaker find it a bit odd to hear an expression like "Quiero que yo pueda nadar mañana." It's not a question of conforming to the... - Izanoni1, Jul 29, 2010

...RAE as much as it is a question of conforming to the language that we grew up with. I would caution you as well that, if you are basing your understanding of language usage on people you come in contact with in Texas, it is fair to say that many of... - Izanoni1, Jul 29, 2010

....these people are heritage speakers whose level of fluency and understanding of the language will vary widely. You will also find many instances of anglicisms and code switching that occur within spoken "Tex-mex" that will make it sound strange to.... - Izanoni1, Jul 29, 2010

...hispanohablantes from other parts of the world, including Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, etc - Izanoni1, Jul 29, 2010

I will not argue this further. Continued discussion here will lead to greater misunderstanding. We must unfortunatley agree to disagree. - rockdown667, Jul 29, 2010

Answer 7

Pajaro said

Could you say something about this? Is there ever a time when there wouldn't be a change of subject? Could you provide some examples?

Well here´s one,

Quiero hacerlo - I want to do it (no subjunctive, no change of subject)

Quiero que lo hagas - I want you to do it (subjunctive, change of subject)

Eddy, what about using the subjunctive when there is *no* change of subject? Could you provide an example of that? - Pajaro44, Jul 28, 2010

Espero que yo pueda nadar manaña. - rockdown667, Jul 28, 2010

Thank you, rockdown! - Pajaro44, Jul 28, 2010

Answer 8

Something that always seems to confuse me is that most of the time there must be a change of subject between the main clause and the subordinate clause. As shown, in all your ''wedding'' examples except for the ''interrogative/impersonal'' and the ''God'' examples.

Could you say something about this? Is there ever a time when there wouldn't be a change of subject? Could you provide some examples?

Thank you for your help!

BTW, I like your ''wedding'' better than ''weirdo''!

viva la Minnesota! - rockdown667, Jul 28, 2010

Sorry Pajaro, I misunderstood your question. - Eddy, Jul 28, 2010

Answer 9

Ok well to put an end to this change of subject argument, I can use this example.

No sé si pueda nadar mañana.

There you have a use of subjunctive without a change of subject.

Answer 10

Subjunctive Practice

Some practice for those of you that have read the subjunctive booklet and would like some additional practice.

Answer 11

this is great, thank you guys!! and pls allow me to practice may spanish here. i'll post some sentences to check my level and understanding.

gracias a todo el mundo!!

Answer 12

@ Pajaro - Could you say something about this? Is there ever a time when there wouldn't be a change of subject? Could you provide some examples?

While it's true that the subjunctive is rarely used in main clauses it does happen.

Eg. Quisiera pedirte un favor. I'd like to ask you a favor.

In this case it's a courtesy thing.

Quizas vayamos a Chile. Perhaps we'll go to Chile.

In this case you're putting the whole going thing into doubt.

Baja las escaleras. Go down the stairs.

The command form uses the subjunctive.

Also - with adverbial clauses (those that describes how, when, where, or under what conditions something will take place) requires subjunctive in spanish if the action in the main clause hasn't occured yet.

Sabré quién eres cuando te vea?

Will I know who you are when I see you? (no change of subject but ver in the subjunctive because it's an anticipated action.)

Those are the main ones that I can think of - I hope it helps