When to use marcharse (de), irse (de) and/or salir (de)
What's the difference.
Also why isn't salir salirse(yes I know salirse exists) since you are leaving. Why isn't it reflexive like marcharse.
Also when do you use irse vs. ir
36 Answers
Reflexive, pronomial whatever you want to call it there doesn't to be a difference. And if there is one it is one that seems negligible.
I think the problem here is an unclear definition/understanding of the term reflexive.
**reflexive
describes words that show that the person who does the action is also the person who is affected by it
© Cambridge Dictionary**
marcharse= leaving(to leave) He (himself) is leaving. Sounds reflexive to me. He left something is not se marcha algo. So in what instance would you not be affected by you yourself leaving.
I hate to disagree with Cambridge, but I have read more precise definitions of "reflexive verb" that indicate that the subject is acting upon himself. When I was beginning to learn Spanish, my simple American mind equated "reflexive" with "reflecting" the action back to the subject. I think the "affected by it" part is very vague, because, as Raven has pointed out, one is affected by nearly every action he performs. If I slap you, I am "affected" in that I will feel pain in my own hand, I will have damaged my reputation, I will have ruined a friendship, I will risk incurring a counter blow, etc., etc. "Yo camino". I am affected in that I will end up in a different location than where I began, I will burn calories, etc., etc. One definition I remember reading put it something like this: "... the subject is both the agent and the patient (recipient) of the action of the verb."
I think that with that definition, we can draw a clearer distinction between a reflexive verb and a merely pronominal verb. A pronominal verb, by all definitions I have read, is one that requires the use of a pronoun as part of the verb itself. There are several types of pronominal verbs, one of which is reflexive (voice) verbs. There are also reciprocal (voice) verbs, idiomatic pronomial verbs, and inherent (or "pure") pronominal verbs. (Due to their being accompanied by reflexive pronouns, some also like to include impersonal intransitive, autocausative, and anticausative verbs in this category, but a discussion of these would add little to this topic.)
So, since reflexive verbs are just one type of pronominal verb, a verb can be pronominal without being reflexive, and any verb that is reflexive is also pronominal, by definition.
With a reflexive verb, we also use pronouns in English. "He trusts himself." "They dress themselves." "She got herself up without an alarm." "We cheered ourselves up." (In the last two examples, the pronouns may be considered direct objects in English, but you get the idea of what this would be in Spanish--a reflexive verb.) "Se cepilla los dientes." "Nos sentamos en el sofá." As Lazarus said, if a verb is reflexive, you can add the optional "a si mismo" (or the equivalent) to the sentence without changing the meaning.
Reciprocal verbs use a reflexive pronoun to indicate that all parties of the subject are both performing and receiving the action of the verb. Example: "They are looking at each other." = "Se están mirando (el uno al otro/los unos a los otros)". This is not reflexive. No one person is looking at himself.
Inherent (or pure) pronominal verbs are those which have no use without the pronoun, they can only be pronominal. Lazarus gave a good example of this ... "arrepentirse." There is no such verb as "arrepentir." Another example is "quejarse" (some may cite a vague use of "quejar," but most dictionaries do not list it). Maybe Lazarus or someone else has a good list of these. If so, I would like to get it.
An idiomatic pronomial verb is one whose meaning changes when used as a pronominal. Lazarus gave a good example of that in acordar/acordarse (to agree/to remember). Another would be conducir/conducirse (to drive/to behave). As Lazarus said, the change in meaning with many verbs is more subtle (ir/irse = to go/to go away, leave), but it is a change nonetheless.
Then there is an area about which I have a question. Does the middle voice exist in Spanish? Are reflexive verbs middle voice? What about sentences like:
'Ella se comió dos panes'. ('She ate herself two rolls.')
'ÿl se atrapó un zorro'. ('He caught himself a fox.')
'Te has ganado un aumento'. ('You have earned yourself a raise.')
I don't know if this is considered pronominal use of these verbs in Spanish or not. (Do they require the use of the pronouns') It could be considered simply middle voice, just using the pronoun to change it from active to middle voice. But this is really beside the point. If someone could answer this for me, I really would appreciate it, though.
Now, back to the question about "marcharse." No, it is not reflexive (see deninition above). It is pronominal. Raven points out that the dictionary defines both marchar and marcharse as "to leave". The issue, then, is that of usage. Lazarus points out that in Spain marchar is not used in that sense. I have learned in my years of speaking Spanish that it doesn't matter if I can win my argument by citing some dictionary reference; if what this gringo says sounds stupid to all the native hearers, then I have actually lost, and I have proved my ignorance. Nine times out of ten, usage rules. (Correct usage, that is.) One of the lessons I have learned many times is that, although dictionaries have their place, they are inept at explaining usage, nuance, subtleties of syntax, etc. That's why we have this forum, and that's why we turn to educated native speakers representative of different parts of the Spanish-speaking world.
marcharse= leaving(to leave) He (himself) is leaving. Sounds reflexive to me.
In "He himself..." there is nothing reflexive at all. Try something like "He went to himself" for a reflexive structure. Reflexive constructions generally allow the addition of "a uno mismo" = (to) himself, but "Me voy a mí mismo" sounds completely ridiculous, because you are not going to yourself; you are leaving. Here, "irse" is not "to go to oneself", but it is actually a different verb in a way (ie. to leave). Another example:
Acordar = to agree
Acordarse = '''?
Let's see: To agree (to) oneself, perhaps? No, it means "to remember". There is nothing reflexive here; "acordar" has a meaning, and "acordarse" has another meaning completely different. "Acordarse" is the pronominal counterpart of "acordar".
Reflexive is left for sentences like "Me lavo (a mí mismo)", where you wash yourself, and you can add "a mí mismo" if you want. Here, the meaning of "wash" is the same whether you wash an object, or yourself.
Just wanted to add that this does not happen with reflexive verbs.
Peter washes Mary. pedro lava a maría.
Peter washes himself. Pedro se lava.
the meaning if the verb does not change.
Raven just as a matter of information, the verb "marchar" does make perfect sense without its se.
Marchar:
Los soldados marcharon durante 5 horas sin parar. (to march)
Los soldados se marcharon durante 5 horas. (they left during 5 hours)
As Lazarus is trying to explain, a pronominal use of the verb changes the meaning, sometimes completely.
Same happens with salir:
Esta noche salgo con Pepe. (go out)
Pepe está que se sale. (Pepe is great!, very colloquial use)
Se sale la leche (the milk is overcooking)
But it is very enlightening. Thanks, Patch.
"To wash up" here in Britain means "to wash the dishes, knives, forks, pans etc". But more common is to use the noun phrase (') eg "I'm going to do the washing up".
But that entirely misses the point of this thread...
I have to agree with Ravensty on this one: "wash up a cup" sounds funny in America. "Wash up" followed by an object might occur, but (in my opinion) it sounds deliberately countrified. (No offense to anyone!)
However, I'm quite sure that Lazarus was trying to point out that in English, phrasal verbs aren't very "logical". A classic example: Why do we chop down a tree and then chop up the wood'
Classic example of what I'm talking about. And you're probably right about what Lazarus meant by "bringing that up" (another example), but we'll let him speak for himself.
I agree that in most situations, "wash up a cup" would sound strange in the US, but just because of it being a cup. But you probably wouldn't think it strange if I said, "I'm going to take my car home, get it all washed up, and then enter it in the car show." Or, "Oh, wow, it's late! I have to hurry and wash up these dishes so I can get started on supper!"
Whereas "wash up a cup" is more typical of Scotland, a similar expression more typical in the US would be any using the words "clean up." Most Americans have to "clean up the house" or "clean up your room" or "clean up the yard", etc., instead of just cleaning them (altough some do use this simpler way of stating it). Also, "clean up my report" (i.e., edit it), or clean up your act (i.e., start behaving properly), or "clean up the audio" (i.e., remove the noise from it).
P.S. Can you explain to me the difference between "wash a cup" and "wash up a cup"?
Well...wash a cup sounds normal whereas at least in America wash up a cup sounds well ridiculous.
That doesn't sound so ridiculous in America. We Americans (and I include myself here) are obsessed with using our prepositions as adverbs. Our vocabulary has diminished so, that we must limit ourselves to a few verbs and then modify them with these prepositions. Just one example (and there are MANY more, and probably some better):
I have never in my life had someone tell me to wash up a cup. However America is a big country I suppose somewhere in America it is normal. Oh and I wasn't saying using up was ridiculous. As you mentioned We call somebody up is perfectly fine,but to say wash up a cup is not normal at least on the east coast.
You can say "I'm going to wash up". But once again saying wash up a cup just sounds like to much; that up is severly unneeded.
I have to agree with Ravensty on this one: "wash up a cup" sounds funny in America. "Wash up" followed by an object might occur, but (in my opinion) it sounds deliberately countrified. (No offense to anyone!)
However, I'm quite sure that Lazarus was trying to point out that in English, phrasal verbs aren't very "logical". A classic example: Why do we chop down a tree and then chop up the wood'
I built them myself, with patience and creativity.
Did you build these databases yourself? If not, where should I go to begin accumulating databases like this for myself'
I have all sort of linguistic databases, and I keep updating them with extra information, such as pronominal usages, etc.
Super!! Thanks a million!
Just curious ... how do you come up with such extensive lists? Especially of such rare and uncommon words'
The great majority are not commonly used verbs, and some are very rare, but there you go anyway.
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