When to use marcharse (de), irse (de) and/or salir (de)
What's the difference.
Also why isn't salir salirse(yes I know salirse exists) since you are leaving. Why isn't it reflexive like marcharse.
Also when do you use irse vs. ir
36 Answers
I have a list with 721 inherent pronominal verbs, but it is too long to post it here.
Lazarus, if you DO ever publish your dictionary, your list of inherent pronomial verbs, and your more than 200 (and growing) list of the most commonly used verbs (I think these were the ones that don't give the same meaning when not used pronominally, even though the dictionary gives that certain usage for them), I will be one of the first to buy them. Lists like that are like gold to me, for reference and for my own learning.
It's not that you would memorize such a list, Raven, just that seeing verbs with which you are familiar classified in such a way draws a contrast in your mind between them and other verbs not on the list. Instead of giving you a surveyors description of a certain boundary (like grammatical rules and definitions), the lists kind of draw you a map and say, "All of these points are on one side of the line, while all other points are on the other side." Then you can trace the boundary in your own mind, subconsciously organizing and forming your understanding of the criteria, so as to be able to classify other verbs you come across without having to refer to the list.
And if you do or have ever made any kind of list like this available, Lazarus, please let me know, as I would appreciate having it. A reference or link to prior posts would be great.
In my opinion (not all grammarians agree on this), there is a middle voice in Spanish (some of the uses of "se"), but none of those examples above are middle ones. Those pronouns are called datives, and although quite often they can be suppressed, the sentence does not sound the same without them, and sometimes it is almost unacceptable.
OK, Lazarus, I'll let you off the hook on this one ... for today. I think I have taken too much of your time this weekend on the imperfect subjuctive issue. No quiero sacarte TODO el jugo en una sola semana.
P.S. Can you explain to me the difference between "wash a cup" and "wash up a cup"?
Well...wash a cup sounds normal whereas at least in America wash up a cup sounds well ridiculous.
That doesn't sound so ridiculous in America. We Americans (and I include myself here) are obsessed with using our prepositions as adverbs. Our vocabulary has diminished so, that we must limit ourselves to a few verbs and then modify them with these prepositions. Just one example (and there are MANY more, and probably some better):
I have never in my life had someone tell me to wash up a cup. However America is a big country I suppose somewhere in America it is normal. Oh and I wasn't saying using up was ridiculous. As you mentioned We call somebody up is perfectly fine,but to say wash up a cup is not normal at least on the east coast.
You can say "I'm going to wash up". But once again saying wash up a cup just sounds like to much; that up is severly unneeded.
One definition I remember reading put it something like this: "... the subject is both the agent and the patient (recipient) of the action of the verb."
That's the standard definition. However, in my opinion there are no reflexive verbs in Spanish. Almost any verb can behave reflexively, provided that any of its objects matches the subject, but if there is no match, there is no reflexivity. When there isn't such a match, the verb is still the same, with the same meaning, the same behaviour, everything, but none of the objects happen to be the same as the subject. You are not washing your son, but yourself, and in either case, you are using the same verb, so the verb is not reflexive per se.
Pronominal verbs, on the other hand, differ in meaning and/or syntax from their non-pronominal counterparts, and the pronoun is no longer an object, and it is not substituting any object, which is why this label is useful.
With a reflexive verb, we also use pronouns in English. "He trusts himself." "They dress themselves." "She got herself up without an alarm." "We cheered ourselves up." (In the last two examples, the pronouns may be considered direct objects in English, but you get the idea of what this would be in Spanish--a reflexive verb.) "Se cepilla los dientes." "Nos sentamos en el sofá." As Lazarus said, if a verb is reflexive, you can add the optional "a sí mismo" (or the equivalent) to the sentence without changing the meaning.
Inherent (or pure) pronominal verbs are those which have no use without the pronoun, they can only be pronominal. Lazarus gave a good example of this ... "arrepentirse." There is no such verb as "arrepentir." Another example is "quejarse" (some may cite a vague use of "quejar," but most dictionaries do not list it). Maybe Lazarus or someone else has a good list of these. If so, I would like to get it.
I have a list with 721 inherent pronominal verbs, but it is too long to post it here.
Then there is an area about which I have a question. Does the middle voice exist in Spanish? Are reflexive verbs middle voice? What about sentences like:
'Ella se comió dos panes.? ('She ate herself two rolls.')
'ÿl se atrapó un zorro.? ('He caught himself a fox.')
'Te has ganado un aumento.? ('You have earned yourself a raise.')
I don't know if this is considered pronominal use of these verbs in Spanish or not. (Do they require the use of the pronouns') It could be considered simply middle voice, just using the pronoun to change it from active to middle voice. But this is really beside the point. If someone could answer this for me, I really would appreciate it, though..
In my opinion (not all grammarians agree on this), there is a middle voice in Spanish (some of the uses of "se"), but none of those examples above are middle ones. Those pronouns are called datives, and although quite often they can be suppressed, the sentence does not sound the same without them, and sometimes it is almost unacceptable.
P.S. Can you explain to me the difference between "wash a cup" and "wash up a cup"?
Well...wash a cup sounds normal whereas at least in America wash up a cup sounds well ridiculous.
That doesn't sound so ridiculous in America. We Americans (and I include myself here) are obsessed with using our prepositions as adverbs. Our vocabulary has diminished so, that we must limit ourselves to a few verbs and then modify them with these prepositions. Just one example (and there are MANY more, and probably some better):
The verb turn:
The first online dictionary that Google presents for this term gives multiple definitions for the following "verb phrases": turn back, turn down, turn in, turn into, turn off, turn on, turn out, turn over, turn to, turn up. One begins to notice this more and more when having to interpret/translate this kind of phrase.
I'm not saying that all of this is bad or that none of it is legitimate, but can't we find more descriptive terms than: Read over this; look it over; check it out; look into it; think it over; store it away, get it back out; throw it away; forget about it, etc., ad nauseum.
Why do we have to "call somebody up" instead of just calling them? ("Up" and "over" are amongst the most commonly abused.)
I don't know about what your Scottish friends may have meant, but if I heard someone say that in the US, I would take it as a colloquial expression for washing it quickly, or that it was an easy, non-cumbersome task (a la, I'll wash it right up for ya), or, that they would do a thorough job of it (a la I'm going to wash up my car and take it to the show.)
On a side note, the term "washed up" here means done for, finished, failed, past one's usefulness, etc.
I guess it might be comparable to what I perceive "venirse" to be in Spanish. There is not much difference between "venirse" and "venir," but it does give a subtle nuance (is that redundant ... subtle nuance'). It is akin to "come on; come over; come on over," etc. vs. just "come." The reflexive pronoun is not necessary, but it fills out or colloquializes the expression.
Why should "salir" be "salirse" anyway?
Although I have not verified it with a dictionary, I hear "salirse" used in the context of escaping, slipping out, etc. Again, another nuance of the same terms in question.
Thanks anyway Laz I'll just learn them day by day it'll be easier then memorizing a list. So far I got marchar only 199 (and growing) left to go,right! 
In all sincerity I am not sure of your motive for asking me this.
Maybe it was a bad example, but when I worked in a kitchen in Scotland, I clearly remember that no one ever said "wash" without adding "up", and I always wondered why. Now I think I have an idea.
Also, it would be convenient for dictionaries to say that a verb such as marchar doesn't make sense unless in its pronominal form.
That would be ideal, but there is no such thing... yet. I keep trying to force myself to finish a dictionary with this sort of information, but the demands of my work, my daughter, and my laziness make it an unlikely project.
...provide me with a list if that is at all reasonable.If there are more than 40 commonly spoken words don't bother.
I have a short list... that goes over 200 (and growing) of the most commonly used verbs, so I rather don't bother, I guess.
P.S. Can you explain to me the difference between "wash a cup" and "wash up a cup"?
Well...wash a cup sounds normal whereas at least in America wash up a cup sounds well ridiculous. Is this supposed to be parallel to how marchar sounds compared to marcharse. In all sincerity I am not sure of your motive for asking me this.
Also, it would be convenient for dictionaries to say that a verb such as marchar doesn't make sense unless in its pronominal form. Then again I suppose that is asking for too much. Maybe some of the geniuses here(yes I am brown nosing)could provide me with a list if that is at all reasonable.If there are more than 40 commonly spoken words don't bother.
I refuse to write a 20,000 words technical essay here (especially after seeing how little you like over-the-top grammatical jargon)
I'd refuse to read it! You're a funny guy Lazarus
yes I did and you also said the difference between a pronominal verb and a reflexive verb is that a pronomial verb takes on another meaning(acordar vs. acordarse) however if marchar and marcharse both mean to leave (as seen on SpanishDict.com) why is marcharse consider a pronominal verb.
Mmmm... let's try again: reflexive is when what you do, you do it to yourself, as in "I wash myself", "I slap myself",... Pronominal is when you have a pronoun that agrees with the verb, and no reflexive interpretation really makes sense.
Some verbs like "arrepentirse" do not exist without the pronoun (you can't say "Arrepiento"); these are often called "pure pronominal". Other verbs, like "acordar", change their meaning completely. Other verbs, like "ir", change slightly, but they change. Other verbs, like "marchar", although their translation with or without the pronoun are identical, they do not sound the same to a native. For example, if I go back to Spain and I say to my friends or family:
Marcho a Inglaterra.
they will find the sentence so funny, that they are likely to answer with another joke and tell me something that sounds like a poem, or taken from a XV century novel. Normal people simply don't talk like that in most places; we say "Me marcho a Inglaterra". So, what's the difference? I refuse to write a 20,000 words technical essay here (especially after seeing how little you like over-the-top grammatical jargon), but let's just say that "marchar" is only used as pronominal in spoken Spanish, and that's all you need to know to communicate efficiently.
P.S. Can you explain to me the difference between "wash a cup" and "wash up a cup"'
yes I did and you also said the difference between a pronominal verb and a reflexive verb is that a pronomial verb takes on another meaning(acordar vs. acordarse) however if marchar and marcharse both mean to leave (as seen on SpanishDict.com) why is marcharse consider a pronominal verb. Once again the frustration!!!! the frustration!!!! 
Interesting, but in this dictionary it says marchar does mean to leave(among other things). The frustration!!!!! The frustration!!!!!
If you read my messages, you'll see that I wrote:
irse = marcharse = to leave
However, "ir" ? "marchar(se)".
Interesting, but in this dictionary it says marchar does mean to leave(among other things). The frustration!!!!! The frustration!!!!!
Reflexive, pronomial whatever you want to call it there doesn't **seem **to be a difference. And if there is one it is one that seems negligible.I can see we ARE gettin excited here.
so not a big deal pronominal or reflexive, interesting point of view.
marcharse= leaving(to leave) He (himself) is leaving. Sounds reflexive to me. He left something is not se marcha algo. So in what instance would you not be affected by you yourself leaving.
Reflexive, pronomial whatever you want to call it there doesn't to be a difference. And if there is one it is one that seems negligible.
