The dreaded Se
Hi All,
My first ever post here so please be gentle. I am very much a beginner at the moment.
I am trying to get to grips with the various uses of the dreaded Se. I understand its use as a reflexive pronoun and I also understand its use as a substitute indirect object pronoun in front of direct object pronouns beginning with the letter "l" to avoid "le la, etc".
I also grasp its use to de-emphasise the precise subject of a verb and make a statement more general ("one" does this or that ...). I think this is called the Impersonal Se.
Finally I am aware of its use in the Passive voice but at the moment I am struggling to think of this as anything more than the Impersonal Se rather than rejigging the whole sentence to get rid of the subject entirely. I just read it as "one reads the book" rather than "the book is read" ...
But here is my very very basic question .....
Suppose I walk into a shop and ask if the assistant can change a €5 note. Not will, just can ....
Which is better .....
¿Puede cambiar esto por favor ?
or
¿Se puede cambiar esto por favor ?
My super basic Spanish teaches me the former but I'm left wondering if native speakers use Se much more than I've been taught and that they naturally use every opportunity to de-emphasise the subject if they really don't care who does the changing (in this example). Hopefully you get my drift.
Sorry if it's a dumb question but I'm just trying to understand how Spanish people think when they are in such a situation. Are they thinking "can YOU change this" or "can you or anyone else in this world change this, I don't care who that person is". Once again hopefully you get my drift.
If the latter is true then the Spanish really have three versions of you rather than the two that we are taught at day one, the informal (tu), the formal (usted) and the "general" (se) and they use the general version much more often than non-natives are taught because they naturally appreciate when to use "you" and when to use "one"
Many thanks for any thought & replies.
11 Answers
I am not a native speaker but have lived in Baja California Sur for eight years. My answer is no, native speakers do not over de-emphasize with "se".
¿Puede cambiar esto por favor ? is the correct approach.
Here you are asking a specific person to make change. Now if the store as a policy makes change in the hope to get you to buy something, then "Se puede cambiar dinero aquí" would be appropriate as anyone can get change here.
"Se" is not used as a third form of you. Address people as individuals just as you would like to treated as a person, so does everyone else. Use Uds. for anyone.
¿Pueden cambiar esto por favor ?
Many thanks for the replies so far.
I shall put my proficiency in my profile when I figure out how to do it but for now it is enough to say that I am a complete beginner.
As for the link to the Impesonal Se, I am already familiar with this construction but it is the way Spanish people think about the Impersonal Se that interests me and I have yet to find that information anywhere on this site or elsewhere.
My actual question sums up my point best. When asking a random person a question where it is of absolutely no consequence who that person is, does a native Spanish speaker intuitively de-emphasise the subject pronoun "you" and intuitively refer to them as "one" (by putting a Se in front) or do they use the standard beginner construction of referring to them as the "formal you" ?
Or another way ....
Does a native speaker intuitively use "tu" for the informal, "usted" for the formal but where it matters specifically who the other person is and what they as a unique individual can offer and then "se" for everyone else ? Or do they just use the "tu" and "usted" forms like all beginners are taught and only use the Impersonal Se when wishing to make abstract generalised statements ?
It's just that I see the Impersonal Se used so frequently that it seems to be being applied to this third kind of conversation where it is with an individual but it fundamentally doesn't matter who that person is.
In my example, I am asking the person for change in their capacity as shop assistant not as an individual. So do I refer to them as "usted" or "se" ?
I'm probably completely mistaken but I'm determined to get to the bottom of this :o)
Many thanks.
Hi all,
I'm back again ...
Firstly I want to thank everyone for their replies. I think it is pretty clear that any idea of native speakers using "se" in the context I laid out is totally mistaken. This is a great relief as I was envisioning having to decide whether in certain settings an individual should be referred to a tu, usted or se but clearly it is just tu or usted. Big relief.
However, it is interesting to read of Daniela's experiences of learning English and it seems clear from what she says that native Spanish speakers are much more attuned to using "one" (= se) when it is appropriate rather than the sloppy "you" we usually use in English. Indeed her emphatic statement that "se" does NOT mean you in any sense really does put that notion to bed. Many thanks.
Moving on, a couple of other really useful comments which have really got me thinking are annierats' ....
However, if you want to enter the shop, but they are cleaning the floor, you would ask '¿Se puede entrar ?'' ( Can one come in? ) That is a common usage.
and gringojrf's reply ....
I would say, "¿Puedo entrar?" I don't care if anyone else can enter, I want to know if I can
both of which I understand perfectly and once again hit the nail on the head.
Do native Spanish speakers naturally think like annierats or like gringojrf in this situation ? Do they have a hard and fast rule whether "one" or "I" is appropriate or do they think like native English speakers and use them interchangeably ? What about the written word - do they naturally use "one" more than "I" in the written word to avoid littering an article with "I did this, I did that, can I do this etc etc" ?
Because I'm a beginner I would naturally use gringo's form of words but I am now wondering if my question about "se" replacing "you" (now debunked) is actually a question about "se" replacing "I" in much everyday conversation and writing ?
The examples above perfectly illustrate the change from "I" to "one". Do native Spanish speakers intuitively make this generalization if it is appropriate much more readily than English speakers who tend to stick to "can I" ? I am thinking about the written word more than everyday conversation here .....
Many thanks again.
Des
ps I shall await any replies here before starting a new question about specifics of the Passive Voice which I suspect is also responsible for quite a few se 's that I read in the Spanish newspapers.
I hope you guys don't think this is for my academic interest only and that I should learn to ask the time first, because right now I feel completely unable to read Spanish mainly because of the se 's all over the place and I simply don't know how to interpret at least 50% of them.
Either.
Both will work.
However, se puede cambiar literally means ' can one change this..' which would be understood but is perhaps not the most natural approach.
However, if you want to enter the shop, but they are cleaning the floor, you would ask '¿Se puede entrar ?'' ( Can one come in? ) That is a common usage.
Hi Des If you are going to stick around - which I hope you will, can you add your level of Spanish and English to your profile? I know you must think 'what an idiot!' because you have put on this thread you are a beginner in Spanish and it is clear from your turn of phrase, you are fluent in English.
However, it saves repetition, as if you ask or answer a further question we can click on your profile and either put great wait to an answer from a fluent English speaker or answer a question about the Spanish language in English.
If you want to go further the country where you are based helps Eg I am based in the UK so my turn of phrase is British English which goes down like a lead balloon rather than over like a lead balloon and though I have visited Mexico and other Latin American countries I am more used to the culture and idioms of Spain.
Here is a thorough explanation of the Spanish word "se". I believe this to be absolutely true. jajaja
Many thanks indeed for clarifying things. I always thought that my first question asking for change was the correct one because as you say people like to be referred to as people not as "one" and we don't go round in the English speaking world saying "can one break a twenty ?" so why would they do the same in the Spanish speaking world ....
But I still see "Se" used more frequently than I would have expected and (as far as I can tell with my beginner Spanish) it isn't the Reflexive Se or the "IO substitute Se for Le ..." so can only be to de-emphasise the subject of the verb either by depersonalising it or completely pacifying it altogether.
I shall search for examples and report back :o)
This thread has given me confidence that I'm not a complete moron so I shall stick around :o)
Thanks again.
There are many answers elsewhere on the Q&A - type - se - in the search box to find them
There is useful information in the Reference Articles.
Hola, Des:
One thing for sure. "Se" does NOT in any way mean "you" It's just that English has this goofy way of using "you" when "you" is not really meant. As in "How do you say this?"
We really mean "How does one say this?" or "How is this said"
When I was learning English I used to ask my teacher: "¿Por qué se dice "you" cuando en realidad no quiere decir "you" sino "one?" Or When is it proper to use "you" when "you" is not really meant? I used to think that this part of English was really dumb. Of course I now realize that "you" doesn't mean "you" it means "one."
I hope that my post coming from the "other side" will help you to realize that people invented language and people are goofy. It is futile to try to analyze deeply. You'll go crazy.
My advice is slow your brain down a little, take a deep breath and say, "Expressions going from one language to another are going to be different, seldom logical. I will observe what native speakers do and try to keep up." 
These are similar to some of my facial expressions while trying to learn English.
Hi Mardle,
I have finally figured out how to update my profile.
I am also from the UK but in the interests of the so-called Special Relationship I thought I'd throw in an Americanism with "breaking the twenty" :o) Cheers gringojrf for being the one to actually answer my question. You live in a beautiful part of the world.
I had zero desire to learn Spanish for the first 43 years of my life until two years ago when I bought a place in the Canary Islands. Now I want to learn pretty desperately but as my profile says I'm a great one for learning theory but much less confident in practice.
I haven't a clue what a native speaker is saying except for the very odd word I pick up amongst the babble, but my knowledge of the subjunctive after Si is coming on a treat :o/ Not much use when you (or is it "one") can barely ask the time .....
To make progress I have to stop looking to make direct translations over to English and vice versa and go with the flow of the idiomatic use of the language. To stop thinking that "being hungry" is any more correct than "having hunger" etc etc .....
Cheers
