me dueles ?
Gurus
As much as I love this song its giving me a headache grammatically speaking.
First I simply assumed it means "You hurt me" and it seemed to make perfect sense. Then my Spanish buddy throws me off again by saying "No it's Me Duele !" I told him the song was called "Me Dueles" but he insists that's not correct.
According to him the verb "doler" is used to say "I'm hurting" or "I'm hurt" or "My arm hurts" and so forth. Me duele el brazo.
I asked him how to say "You hurt me" and he said "Me lastimas" for example.
What bugs me tremendously is that a band from Spain such as La Quinta would sing something totally wrong ? I mean they must know right ? What does "Me dueles" sound like to a native speaker ?
Assuming it really is wrong then how would I know ? I can't find anything in the dictionary that shows me that the word "doler" cannot be used to hurt someone else. The only hint I guess I have is that it has no examples in there saying "You hurt me" but then again a dictionary cannot mention every single way a word is used. I probably have to learn how to read a dictionary better.
Any feedback is appreciated !
Thanks
71 Answers
Guys
One final word on this. I went to B&N today and took a look at the huge, big, fat Collins version of the one I have and indeed - no mentioning of doler being "vt". Yet the smaller version of the same book happily claims that. What does that say about Collins ? I let you develop your own opinion on that. I have mine now.
I also couldn't help but peek at Webster's New World and (drummroll ...)
"vi" only. Interestingly, they are the only ones who label "dolerse" and "vpr" rather than "vr".
For everyone currently looking for a good dictionary let's summarize again.
Collins Concise Dictionary doler - vt,vi dolerse - vr
Oxford Desk Dictionary doler - vi NOTHING else. Dolerse does not exist here.
Webster's New World doler - vi dolerse - vpr
I believe Webster is the clear winner here would you guys agree ? I picked it up an now I can check each controversial verb in 3 dictionaries.
What fabulous answers! Allow me to sum up.
In a nutshell:
Me dueles is grammatically incorrect but poetically allowable--it's an example of poetic license on the part of the songwriter.
Me dueles - I regret you ?
No sticky, this is a song, in songs or poems...anything goes
She is using the verb as though it had a neutral subject.
me duele el tiempo, me duele la cabeza, me dueles tú.
A person technically cannot be the subject of doler. The correct verb to use is dañar or hacer daño.
I feel like a parrot...
Wow! I just spent 10 minutes reading this deep discussion on the phrase "me dueles". I think I learned everything possible about "dolor" now. I have one protest! Sure "me dueles" is not grammaticly correct, but it is used this way frequently enough for me to have heard quite a few times. Yes, I know you can't use it that way....but they do! So isn't it more important to understand the reasoning behind the phrase at this point...not so much how wrong it is? I have a great example in English! I am from Wisconsin (grew up there anyway). An extremely common phrase there is "would you borrow me that?". Now we all know that the proper usage of terminology here would be "would you lend me that?" But not so in Wisconsin! Talk about confusing for the poor immigrant who moves there! But I can gaurantee that it wouldn't matter how much he protested that Wisconsinites were using bad grammar they certainly wouldn't stop! I guess my point is that I am pretty sure this is a regional usage that won't go away. I asked some of my Mexican friends what the difference is and they said that "me lastimas" indicates a sharp, quick pain while "me dueles" indicates a deep, dull pain. There! There's my two cents to add to the mountain of opinion!
Which, if one knows from context that the comment was the subject, that could easily be shortened to me dolió, which really seems to indicate "me dueles" is also fine -- grammatically speaking.
Webdiunce, no, it is not!
Me dueles, the subject is YOU!! Now you tell me how YOU can feel pain ONTO somebody????
The literal translation would be as I said before:
You feel pain on me.
Now if that makes sense to you, you are welcome to use this sentence in English, in Spanish it is not only incorrect, but people would be puzzled as to what the heck you are saying.
Ok, so last time: me dueles is grammatically incorrect.
ese comentario me dolió -- the same way that "that comment" feels pain onto me...honestly, I don't get doler, and I think I'm gonna drop it for now and hopefully later it will make sense to me. - webdunce
Web, you are missing the point though:
doler means: to hurt, and not to inflict pain
When it is to hurt=inflict pain...the subject is a person, food, animals....
When it is to hurt=to feel pain: the subject can be anything BUT a person
So, ese comentario me dolió: Este comentario (me) dolió a mí. The comment hurt me.
I know in English it is the same thing:
You hurt me.
My head hurts.
Ok, but in Spanish, they are two different words: hurt and dañar/hacer daño
think of it as ser y estar, two different verbs for one in English.
Hi Study101, You mentioned that
I thought that if a verb was labled as "vi" only it means it cannot take a direct object hence "me dueles" is wrong.
Do you not similarly say in German one "Es tut mir weh"....? Isn´t "mir" in the dative case?, just as I assume that the "me" must be indirect when used with "doler", doler being intransitive.
I guess that doler simply does not directly perform an action on an object in the same way that the transitive verb "golpear" does, for example.
Here a use of the transitive golpear from the Gran Diccionario Oxford
2b (maltratar) to beat, hit; su marido la golpea her husband hits her
The husband cannot directly "dolerla"...but one can probably say that he "le duele"....Well, I suppose a native speaker should confirm that...I am guessing a bit.
Gfreed
I'm not entirely sure what you're saying.
Is me dueles ok to say or not ?
How did you get from this to dolerse ?
My Oxford doesn't even flag doler as reflexive at all. Instead it only flags it as intransitive. Doesn't that mean it cannot be used with a direct object pronoun ?
That's the other trouble I have. When I see such a sentence I can't always tell if it's the direct "me" or the indirect "me" since they are the same. I'm pretty sure this is the IOP right ? If it was reflexive it'd be something like "te dueles" Then again I still don't fully understand transitive vs. intransitive. If "Me duele" means "It hurts me" isn't "me" a direct object here ?
Subject - it action - hurt direct object - me (receiver of action)
I thought that if a verb was labled as "vi" only it means it cannot take a direct object hence "me dueles" is wrong. Then again what's the difference between "it" hurting me and "you" hurting me ? Both times "something/someone hurts me" I don't get it quite yet.
How about my other questions ? Can I say "Me faltas" ? "I miss you" ? If not why not when I can say "Me dueles" ? Both are labled as "vi" only so shouldn't they act the same ?
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I couldn't resist adding this interesting song by Reyli that contains a great example of the usage of "me dueles". As they say, the proof is in the pudding!
This is a [http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/reyli-perdoname-en-silencio/b9d39dac5a31989e3ce4b9d39dac5a31989e3ce4-1640637923665]
Just for the record, Stucky101, You may remember that I made the "mistake" of downloading Collins Unabridged...not the Concise, and found only "doler VI" and the pronominal (vpr) dolerse.
I then began to use that (on my laptop) dictionary in conjunction with my Gran Diccionario Oxford (hardcover) and Babylon 8 (with which you may or may not also be familiar).
I am listening to a audio story that is difficult for me: Pepe Carvahlo y una desconocida None of my dictionaries so far (including the one at rae.es) has always been able to provide me with expressions such as "despedirse a la francesa" (to take ones leave without saying goodbye) or even single words such as "farias" (see Heidi's answer to what farias means).
But I have had a good success rate with Collins Unabridged finding other words that were not, indeed, in my other dictionaries: Tracatrá, for example: an exclamation meaning "no way! or get away! or mosso, which is a masculine noun referring to "Mossos d'esquadra", the Catalan autonomous police.
Moreover, the Collins (again, Unabridged) has given me superior support for a words as "butifarra", showing that it is not only = embutido, but that it is a Catalan sausage.
Finally, although I can imagine ways to improve the desktop interface, it includes conjugations and grammar explanations.
I returned to the site and paid full price!! ...which was only about $27. Do you suppose that the "Concise" is even published by the same house.
Here the Unabridged entry for doler from Collins on my desktop:
doler VI 1 (Med) to hurt ¿(te) duele? does it hurt?
la inyección no duele the injection doesn't hurt
me duele el brazo my arm hurts
me duele la cabeza my head hurts (por migraña, resaca) I've got a headache
me duele el estómago I've got (a) stomach ache
me duelen las muelas I've got toothache
me duele la garganta I've got a sore throat
2 (= afligir) to hurt ese comentario me dolió I was hurt by that comment, that comment hurt
no me duele gastarme el dinero en esto I don't mind spending money on this, spending money on this doesn't bother me
me duele no poder prestártelo I'm very sorry I can't lend it to you
¡ahí le duele! so that's where the problem is!
And next it lists the pronominal form
dolerse VPR (frm)
1 (= sufrir) me duelo por su ausencia I miss him terribly
¡duélete de mí! pity me!
2 (= arrepentirse) dolerse de algo to regret sth
se duele de su pasado egoísta she regrets her selfish past
dolerse de los pecados to repent of one's sins
3 (= quejarse) to complain
And finally, I do think we probably always need multiple dictionaries and even then we cannot do without all the resources of the Web and Heidi, here at SpanishDict.com....and .... let us not forget .... when we have come far enough along with our Spanish learning, the RAE itself
Only 4th ? And I thought I was the current king of threads ! haha
Heidita
Thank you for all your input. I guess we will have to accept it for what it is at this point. Thank you everyone - I learned something !
Still, I want you guys to go to B&N and take a peek at this dictionary just so you que no estoy loco !
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Collins-Spanish-Concise-Dictionary/HarperCollins-Publishers/e/9780061141843/?itm=3&USRI=collins+concise+dictionary
Stucky, yes, I actually mentioned that before in one of my posts
My spanish buddy agrees with you on "Me dueles" being wrong but "Me duelen los zapatos" is something he fully supports. "My shoes are causing me pain" NOT "My shoes are in pain". Can you confirm that you consider this as incorrect as "Me dueles" ?
Very often used, should of course be, me duelen los pies.
Heidita I'm still somewhat unsure what you think since you say it means nothing and cannot be translated but on the other hand you allow it as part of creative freedom ? If you had to choose would you prefer 1. or 2. then ?
I always say, in poetry and songs, anything goes
And yes, why say:
I ain't never gonna buy nothing from you
Yeah, why say that if is completely wrong and even to a native it sounds bad? jeje
Me dueles is technically wrong, cannot be said like this, as doler is intransitive and cannot have a direct object, (liek the English is technically wrong as you cannot have three negatives in a sentence, leave alone the slang used!) however, if this singer has used this, she most likely wanted to convey, that he has caused her harm. This is what I would understand without further context.
By the way, this thread is going to be the fourth longest thread on the site soon
Ok now I'm about to give up !
All this time I at least thought I knew that doler was only intransitive but my other dictionary (Collins) say this :
doler vt,vi to hurt (fig); to grieve dolerse vr (de su situación) to grieve
What ? Now it can be transitive ? Doesn't that make "Me dueles" totally ok ? How come dictionaries never agree on this transitive/intransitive stuff ?
I still don't see how that helps me at all when using a verb. It seems to only complicate things and it also doesn't help that almost all verbs seem to be both plus reflexive on top of that.
Someone explain this. If a dictionary says "doler vt,vi to hurt" and then gives the following example
Me duele el brazo.
How am I supposed to know whether this is a transitive or intransitive example ? They never label the examples themselves so how am I to know ? For all I know this might mean "My arm hurts me" in a transitive way and the "vt" label supports that. Also, why do so many verbs mean the same thing whether used vi or vr ? It says "to grieve" for both. Same with olvidar and olvidarse - both say "to forget".
Maybe I have to go to spanish dictionary interpretation school ? Now I'm worse off than I was earlier. Back to square one.....
That's exactly it though. It appears "Me dueles" sounds terrible to the ear of a native so why say it ?
