imperative, reflexive verbs, comprar, 2nd person plural

Question

Still working on the imperative (slow going), I have just learned that the "positive" vosotros form is built from the infinitve by replacing the "r" with a "d" as in ¡Mirad!, ¡Romped! ¡Vivid! The negative form is formed from the subjunctive and in the positive, personal pronouns are attached to the verb. ¡Pagadlo! ¡Despertadme!

One other rule for reflexive verbs -> the "d" falls away in the positive form for which a reflexive pronoun is attached.¡Levantaos! ¡Decidíos!

But in the exercises I missed this one: ¡compraos! I wrote "comprados esto.! I looked up in SpanishDict.com dictionary as well as the RAE online and found no entry for "comprarse". I am confused:-( What is the explanation for this seeming dichotomy. Should I have read the rule to mean "no 'd' if the verb is used in a reflexive way"'

Months later, I now know that there is no such thing as a "reflexive verb" but rather pronominal verbs. For example: decidirse = to make up one's mind. - Janice, Aug 25, 2009

Answer 1

Just one more thing, there is an exception to the rule:

idos

[url=http://my.spanishdict.com/forum/topic/show'id=1710195:Topic:491083&page=1&commentId=1710195:Comment:491725&x=1#1710195Comment491725]http://my.spanishdict.com/forum/topic/show'id=1710195:Topic:491083&page=1&commentId=1710195:Comment:491725&x=1#1710195Comment491725[/url]

I couldn't get that link to work, even when I put it in the regular link format - 0074b507, Aug 26, 2009

It looks like the link is written twice. - 0074b507, Aug 26, 2009

Answer 2

I like the one more question approach. I have one more question. I asked this before in another thread, but never saw the answer. The rule about dropping the final d before os with the 2nd person, plural, affirmative command: is that for all os pronouns whether reflexive, or objective os pronouns?

If I have a verb that I am not using reflexively (see, I didn't call it a non-reflexive verb), and I attach a direct or indirect os pronoun to it, do I still drop the final d?

Every time I have seen this rule about dropping the d they only mention the reflexive pronoun os and leave you in the dark about the others.

Or are we saying that the os pronoun is the os pronoun and it doesn't matter what part of speech it is used as.

Answer 3

Ok, the last example is simply NOT reflexive. That "os" (or any other equivalent pronoun, such as "se") has the fancy name of "dative", and its function, most of the time (but not always), is simply expressive and not absolutely necessary (although sometimes it makes a difference).

"Compra eso" means, simply, "buy that".
"Cómprate eso" means the same, but that "te" (=to you) is adding some emotional overtones to a seemingly simple sentence. It is implying that what you buy is not just for the sake of buying, but because you really want it or desire it. This kind of "te" (me/te/se/...) was first labelled as "Interest Dative", because it resembles a dative (you know this from German), but its function is simply connect something to someone, because this person is, somehow, interested in the outcome of something

These pronouns have sometimes unpredictable uses, but generally, they make the verbal action complete, terminated, fulfilled,.... "Busca un novio" simply means "Find a boyfriend", but "Búscate un novio" is more like "Find a boyfriend for yourself, someone you need, because it will be good for you". These nuances are, of course, untranslatable.

Months later, I understand this explanation far better now than I did several months ago when I was grappling with the problem. - Janice, Aug 25, 2009

Answer 4

Thank you, again.

Now if I may ask one last question to be perfectly sure that I understand-> one would not drop the "d" to form the imperative "miradme", right? If this is correct, I think I have understood and will move on to the next set of exercises......and probably a new question

Oh, a final thought: I suspect that it will be awhile and take a lot more listening on my part before I can even make out whether that "d" is ever there or not, anyway. The Spanish "d" always seems so "soft" to me that I do not readily recognize it. Of course that is the problem with our alphabet that must do multiple duty and represent different sounds in different languages, I guess.

lazarus1907 said:

When you use this "vosotros" imperative form, the ending is "d": "mirad". However, if you attach the pronoun "os", the "d" must be dropped (except for the verb "ir", in theory): "miraos" (look at yourselves).

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Answer 5

When you use this "vosotros" imperative form, the ending is "d": "mirad".
However, if you attach the pronoun "os", the "d" must be dropped (except for the verb "ir", in theory): "miraos" (look at yourselves).

Answer 6

James, Lazarus....are you trying to tell me I am spending too much time on this forum with your example'

Jeje. Pero, teniendo yo más de 4000 mensajes aquí, eso sería como decir: Apártate que me tiznas (dijo la sartén al cazo).

Answer 7

James, Lazarus....are you trying to tell me I am spending too much time on this forum with your example?

James Santiago said:

Janice, you probably already know this, but the vosotros form isn't used in much of the Americas, and all of the many Spanish classes I have taken here in the US and Mexico completely omit or skip over the vosotros conjugations. Unless you are planning to travel to Spain or some other place where vosotros is used, you don't need to spend too much time on it. Of course, there is no harm in learning it, but if you want to focus on what is most important, you could skip it. I suppose that Cuban Spanish would be most useful where you live."Busca un novio" simply means "Find a boyfriend", but "Búscate un novio" is more like "Find a boyfriend for yourself, someone you need, because it will be good for you". These nuances are, of course, untranslatable.In this case that's not true.Busca un novio = Find a boyfriendBúscate un novio = Find yourself a boyfriendI think the nuance difference is very similar, if not identical. There are many verbs in English that can be used in this way.Compra algo para comer = Buy something to eatCómprate algo para comer = Buy yourself something to eat

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Answer 8

You make this very clear. Thank you, gracias. Now, I understand that "compraos[la] would be (excuse me, "is") the 2nd person plural "imperative" -- omitting the "d" and meaning something like "[go ahead and] buy yourselves [that new house]! (whether you can afford it or not! (I added a bit to achieve some emotional overtones especially relevant to today's US economic environment

I think I should now write to the publisher of my text to suggest that the authors complete their explanation of when to leave off the "d" and let the learner know to also do so for the interest dative.

Oh yes, I am beginning to find that grammar can be fun!

Answer 9

Hi James, One country which certainly does use 'vos' quite a lot is Argentina.

But voseo is not the same as the vosotros form.

Here is a good Wiki article about the differences between voseo, vosotros, and tú.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voseo

Answer 10

Hi James, One country which certainly does use 'vos' quite a lot is Argentina. I know this from my Argentinan pen-pal, and from when I was there while in the Merchant Navy. I don't know about the other Spanish-speaking countries in South America though!

James Santiago said:

Janice, you probably already know this, but the vosotros form isn't used in much of the Americas, and all of the many Spanish classes I have taken here in the US and Mexico completely omit or skip over the vosotros conjugations. Unless you are planning to travel to Spain or some other place where vosotros is used, you don't need to spend too much time on it. Of course, there is no harm in learning it, but if you want to focus on what is most important, you could skip it. I suppose that Cuban Spanish would be most useful where you live."Busca un novio" simply means "Find a boyfriend", but "Búscate un novio" is more like "Find a boyfriend for yourself, someone you need, because it will be good for you". These nuances are, of course, untranslatable.In this case that's not true.Busca un novio = Find a boyfriendBúscate un novio = Find yourself a boyfriendI think the nuance difference is very similar, if not identical. There are many verbs in English that can be used in this way.Compra algo para comer = Buy something to eatCómprate algo para comer = Buy yourself something to eat

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Answer 11

Janice, you probably already know this, but the vosotros form isn't used in much of the Americas, and all of the many Spanish classes I have taken here in the US and Mexico completely omit or skip over the vosotros conjugations. Unless you are planning to travel to Spain or some other place where vosotros is used, you don't need to spend too much time on it. Of course, there is no harm in learning it, but if you want to focus on what is most important, you could skip it. I suppose that Cuban Spanish would be most useful where you live.

"Busca un novio" simply means "Find a boyfriend", but "Búscate un novio" is more like "Find a boyfriend for yourself, someone you need, because it will be good for you". These nuances are, of course, untranslatable.

In this case that's not true.

Busca un novio = Find a boyfriend
Búscate un novio = Find yourself a boyfriend

I think the nuance difference is very similar, if not identical. There are many verbs in English that can be used in this way.

Compra algo para comer = Buy something to eat
Cómprate algo para comer = Buy yourself something to eat

Answer 12

By the way, these "datives" have the same function in any tense, not just imperative.