Learning Spanish -lesson 2.3 Writing Portion- the prepositional phrase as a redundant clarifier

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This lesson was on the use of the direct and indirect object pronouns.
Sample sentence provided: "María da las luces a mí -> María me las da."
1. José tira las serpentinas a ellos.

My question is whether the two sentences are correct, before substituting the pronouns?
Specifically, is it allowable to use the prepositional phrase (a mí, a ellos) without having an i.o. pronoun in the sentence? e.g. Is the prepositional phrase redundant, but the i.o. pronoun required'

9313 views
updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by 0074b507

21 Answers

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Sorry! I had the intention of having you guys correct the sentences before shortening them, but I forgot to add that in directions. Terrible mistake. It is all fixed now and I'm so sorry! If there is an indirect object, there must ALWAYS be an indirect object pronoun!

updated DIC 30, 2009
posted by Paralee
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Quentin said:

Marcos,just out of curiosity, do you have the same problem that I do recognizing the affirmative, singular informal command'How do you know whether means or ? It may be redundant, but I prefer to write to write the affirmative command.Tiene que daros las gracias (o darles) las gracias (a vosotros) [o a ustedes]

Marco T said:

Danos las gracias (a nosotros).Tiene que daros (o darles) las gracias (a vosotros)I just want to get the confirmation about the use of these forms.Thanks,Marco

Lazarus and I seem to posting answers at the same time so please excuse any duplication in replies.

Hi Quentin, actually English is not my first language so it's not easy for me to explain many things in English.
But in the sentence, "danos las gracias (a nosotros)", it should be "(you must) give us the thanks" if it's translated to English. And "you must" is not necessary to be written in Spanish.
If you write it as "danos tú las gracias (a nosotros)", it means "(you must) give us [you]? the thanks". It does not sound right.
I am not sure if I do have the same problem as you do. I think other experts like lazarus, James, etc would probably be able to answer this question. smile {wink}

Marco

updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by Marco-T
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All languages have their own methods of dealing with potential misunderstandings. Spanish relies on the position of the pronoun for this, and English relies on the presence or absence of the personal pronoun: you know that "listen" is a command, because you haven't used the compulsory personal pronoun (e.g. I, you, we,...).

updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by lazarus1907
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Now I see that you and James are posting together.

Yes, we're a tag team. When we're not arguing about something, that is. grin

updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by 00bacfba
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Of couse, how foolish of me. Thank you. Now I see that you and James are posting together.

lazarus1907 said:

Quentin said:

Marcos,just out of curiosity, do you have the same problem that I do recognizing the affirmative, singular informal command? How do you know whether means or ? It may be redundant, but I prefer to write to write the affirmative command.

There is no possible misunderstanding here, Quentin, as pronouns cannot attach to any form in present tense (or any other tense, except for imperative), so "danos las gracias" cannot mean "he/she is giving thanks to us". To say that, the pronoun must precede the verb: "Nos da las gracias". Conversely, If the pronoun appears before the verb, it cannot be a command.Danos = (you) give us! - I command you to give usNos da = He gives us / he is giving usNo room for misinterpretation here.

>

updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by 0074b507
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How do you know whether means or '

It can only be a command. If if were a statement, it would be "Nos da..."

updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by 00bacfba
0
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Quentin said:

Marcos, just out of curiosity, do you have the same problem that I do recognizing the affirmative, singular informal command? How do you know whether means or ? It may be redundant, but I prefer to write to write the affirmative command.

There is no possible misunderstanding here, Quentin, as pronouns cannot attach to any form in present tense (or any other tense, except for imperative), so "danos las gracias" can never be understood as "he/she is giving thanks to us". To make such statement, the pronoun must precede the verb: "Nos da las gracias", and since commands must have the pronoun attached at the end of the word, this cannot be understood as a command.

Danos = (you!) Give us! - I command you to give us (command)
Nos da = He gives us / he is giving us (statement)

No room for misinterpretation here. Resorting to "Danos tú" is not a happy idea, really.

updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by lazarus1907
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Marcos,
just out of curiosity, do you have the same problem that I do recognizing the affirmative, singular informal command?
How do you know whether means or ? It may be redundant, but I prefer to write to write the affirmative command.

Tiene que daros las gracias (o darles) las gracias (a vosotros) [o a ustedes]

Marco T said:

Danos las gracias (a nosotros).Tiene que daros (o darles) las gracias (a vosotros)I just want to get the confirmation about the use of these forms.Thanks,Marco

Lazarus and I seem to posting answers at the same time so please excuse any duplication in replies.

updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by 0074b507
0
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Marco T said:

Danos las gracias (a nosotros). Tiene que daros (o darles) las gracias (a vosotros)

I just want to get the confirmation about the use of these forms.

Both correct, but if you say "darles", you have to say "a ustedes/ellos/ellas", and not "a vosotros".

updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by lazarus1907
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lazarus1907 said:

me - a míte - a tile - a élle - a ellale - a ustednos - a nosotrosos - a vosotrosos - a vosotrasles - a ustedesles - a ellosles - a ellasda (imperative) ; da + le = dale (imperative)dar (infinitive) ; dar + le = darle (infinitive)"Dame las gracias (a mí)" is fine, but that "a mí" is not necessary."Tienes que darme las gracias (a mí)".

Thanks, lazarus. Now I got the difference between "da + le" and "dar + le".
Please check the sentences I listed below to see if they are correct.

Danos las gracias (a nosotros).
Tiene que daros (o darles) las gracias (a vosotros)

I just want to get the confirmation about the use of these forms.

Thanks,

Marco

updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by Marco-T
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me - a mí
te - a ti
le - a él
le - a ella
le - a usted
nos - a nosotros
os - a vosotros
os - a vosotras
les - a ustedes
les - a ellos
les - a ellas

da (imperative) ; da + le = dale (imperative)
dar (infinitive) ; dar + le = darle (infinitive)

"Dame las gracias (a mí)" is fine, but that "a mí" is not necessary.
"Tienes que darme las gracias (a mí)".

updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by lazarus1907
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lazarus1907 said:

Marco T said:

Did you mean that it would be better to use redundant i.o pronoun in both cases, Quentin? Or the redundant i.o pronoun can be used in both cases.

There are very few cases where you can't use the anticipatory pronoun (I like this term better than "redundant pronoun"), and when you can use it, it generally sounds more natural if you do.

Thanks, lazarus for this very good advice.

I have another confusion. Does "dale" mean "gives to him/her" only or it also includes "gives to me or you"? If not, how would you write the form referring to "me" or "you"?

¿Es "dáme las gracias a mí" correcta? If it is correct, what does "darme" refer to? Is "darme" for second person or first person if you use "darte"?

Marco

updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by Marco-T
0
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Marco T said:

Did you mean that it would be better to use redundant i.o pronoun in both cases, Quentin? Or the redundant i.o pronoun can be used in both cases.

There are very few cases where you can't use the anticipatory pronoun (I like this term better than "redundant pronoun"), and when you can use it, it generally sounds more natural if you do.

updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by lazarus1907
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Quentin said:

Marco:Lazarus was just saying that if the pronoun is used as the object of the preposition (or the i.o.) that the redundant i.o. pronoun must also be used. . When the i.o. was the redundant i.o. pronoun was not required (but recommended)

Marco T said:

So, "Da las gracias a tu abuela" is correct ("dale" is much more common), but "Da las gracias a ella" is wrong.

lazarus, no sé por qué no "da las gracias a ella" es correcta.¿Cómo se escribe la frase'"He/she gives many thanks to your grandmother" and "he/she gives many thanks to her" both sound correct in English. I got confused here.Marco

Did you mean that it would be better to use redundant i.o pronoun in both cases, Quentin? Or the redundant i.o pronoun can be used in both cases.

Marco

updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by Marco-T
0
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Marco:
Lazarus was just saying that if the pronoun is used as the object of the preposition (or the i.o.) that the redundant i.o. pronoun must also be used. . When the i.o. was the redundant i.o. pronoun was not required (but recommended)

Marco T said:

So, "Da las gracias a tu abuela" is correct ("dale" is much more common), but "Da las gracias a ella" is wrong.


lazarus, no sé por qué no "da las gracias a ella" es correcta.¿Cómo se escribe la frase'"He/she gives many thanks to your grandmother" and "he/she gives many thanks to her" both sound correct in English. I got confused here.Marco

updated DIC 1, 2008
posted by 0074b507