A mi madre la besa mi padre.
My father kisses my mother.
This little sentence caused a lot of confusion on another forum.
Some of the confusion/comments that arose were:
Is the 'la' direct or indirect?
Is it an example of 'laismo'?
Is it grammatically correct but with a rather strange sentence structure?
My own view was that writing it more normally 'Mi padre la besa a mi madre' then 'la' is simply the direct object pronoun and 'a' is the so called 'personal 'a'
A lot of people that I know have more knowledge than I disagreed (one point of view was that you can't have this sort of redundancy with direct pronouns)
Anyway the bottom line was that there is a lot of confusion out there.
I'm not sure about the etiquette of posting a thread from another forum here, but I hope it's OK as there may be some instructive and constructive thoughts from the people here on the matter.
18 Answers
I understand the question but have never heard a good answer.
For example, when reading Spanish writings (not translations, original Spanish), the word order is very different from English. People always say: the word order / way to construct sentences in Spanish is more flexible than in English. I understand that and am getting better at comprehending Spanish sentences. However, when talking or writing in Spanish, I default to English word order unless something forces me to change it (verbs like gustar). I don't know how to "bridge the gap" and use the word order in a more natural Spanish "style." The only advice that seems to be around is that eventually you'll "absorb" it.
Is that what you were getting at, Mark?
lazarus1907 said:
Mark Baker said:
Are there Spanish sentences that are considered less advanced (childlike) than others'. For example, (1)My Father kisses my mother.......or (2)My Mother and Father kiss eachother (Mi Madre y Padre se besaron). I don't know if it needs a prepositional 'a' or not. it doesn't need it
Are Spanish students encouraged to change sentences to sound more 'mature'? or is the focus on grammar?
Can I just confirm, 'se besan' is the reciporcal verb 'kiss eachother' or 'kissed eachother' Thanks.
They are reciprocal (using the present tense), which means that the mother kisses the father, and the father kisses the mother.
I don't quite understand your previous question about making sentences sound more mature.
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Natasha said:
That´s my understanding. (But at this point I´m almost afraid to use any terminology about those se verbs.)
Mark Baker said:
Gus said:
mis padres se besan.mi papá y mi mamá se besanmi padre y mi madre se besanthe rest of your questions are too complicated for me. Can I just confirm, 'se besan' is the reciporcal verb 'kiss eachother' or 'kissed eachother' Thanks.
Come on Natasha, things aren't that bad. Your quasi - reflexive joke lifted the gloom 
Mark Baker said:
Are there Spanish sentences that are considered less advanced (childlike) than others'. For example, (1)My Father kisses my mother.......or
(2)My Mother and Father kiss eachother (Mi Madre y Padre se besaron). I don't know if it needs a prepositional 'a' or not. it doesn't need it
Are Spanish students encouraged to change sentences to sound more 'mature'? or is the focus on grammar?
Can I just confirm, 'se besan' is the reciporcal verb 'kiss eachother' or 'kissed eachother' Thanks.
They are reciprocal (using the present tense), which means that the mother kisses the father, and the father kisses the mother.
I don't quite understand your previous question about making sentences sound more mature.
That´s my understanding. (But at this point I´m almost afraid to use any terminology about those se verbs.)
Mark Baker said:
Gus said:
mis padres se besan.mi papá y mi mamá se besanmi padre y mi madre se besanthe rest of your questions are too complicated for me.
Can I just confirm, 'se besan' is the reciporcal verb 'kiss eachother' or 'kissed eachother' Thanks.
>
Gus said:
mis padres se besan.mi papá y mi mamá se besanmi padre y mi madre se besanthe rest of your questions are too complicated for me.
Can I just confirm, 'se besan' is the reciporcal verb 'kiss eachother' or 'kissed eachother' Thanks.
>
Natasha said:
pick a bone would be a more common expression. In regards to this:
But if you change the order, and place the direct object before the verb, then you must also include the pronoun, as a warning, if you wish:
Did you mean we must or we may? (The "must" makes it sound mandatory, but the "if you wish" makes it sound optional.)
lazarus1907 said:
samdie said:
For somebody who describes is Spanish level as "beginner" you seem to be surprisingly well informed. That being the case, I'll pick a small nit with your English. It would be much better if you were to say "It's no wonder that we poor ..."
Surely it has been a coincidence, because if a foreigner came to me, and used that expression naturally, I'd be really scared.
Natasha, I did have to read this twice -and took it to mean that you must include the pronoun.
I think that the 'if you wish' referred to the term 'as a warning' and lazarus was being a bit flowery with his English
eg as a warning -if you wish/for want of a better term/if you like/in a manner of speaking.
Samdie, I've been looking at Spanish for over 3 years so I guess I'n not really a beginner, although I haven't had any formal lessons. I think in many ways I am intermediate in that I grasp some of the grammar and am reading Spanish books (albeit slowly and with some difficulty) however my spoken Spanish is probably that of a five year old and my comprehension of speech leaves a lot to be desired -I'm trying to listen to more podcasts and the like to improve bearing this in mind I am loathe to describe myself as being intermediate level -let's just say I sound better at talking about Spanish as opposed to talking Spanish.
Regarding my English, that's always been pretty ropey....
mis padres se besan.
mi papá y mi mamá se besan
mi padre y mi madre se besan
the rest of your questions are too complicated for me.
Mark Baker said:
Are there Spanish sentences that are considered less advanced (childlike) than others'.For example,(1)My Father kisses my mother.......or(2)My Mother and Father kiss eachother (Mi Madre y Padre se besaron). I don't know if it needs a prepositional 'a' or not.Are Spanish students encouraged to change sentences to sound more 'mature'? or is the focus on grammar?
>
Are there Spanish sentences that are considered less advanced (childlike) than others'.
For example,
(1)My Father kisses my mother.......or
(2)My Mother and Father kiss eachother (Mi Madre y Padre se besaron). I don't know if it needs a prepositional 'a' or not.
Are Spanish students encouraged to change sentences to sound more 'mature'? or is the focus on grammar'
I agree 100% with you. my aunt in puerto rico talk like this. i choose not to. i understand it but i rarely if ever use it. direct object is ok . indirect object using le or la is what i use if going the indrect route. Laz. if i were to go to spain using Ustedes instead of Vosotros, would that be ok? i am so not a vosotros user. I dont know anyone from the caribbean islands that uses vosotros or "vos". i am planing a trip to cataluna in december. dont want to sound like a campesino. Oh well...
lazarus1907 said:
This is how it works:The direct object is "a mi madre" (with the personal "a"), and its pronoun is "la". The direct object normally appears after the verb:Mi padre besa a mi madre.and it must appear right before the verb as a pronoun:Mi padre la besa.But if you change the order, and place the direct object before the verb, then you must also include the pronoun, as a warning, if you wish:A mi madre la besa mi padre.Mi padre a mi madre la besa.The sentence sounds a bit strange, but it is correct grammatically. If "le" had been used here, it would be "leísmo".P.S. I am 100% sure about what I am saying.
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Natasha said:
Did you mean we must or we may? (The "must" makes it sound mandatory, but the "if you wish" makes it sound optional.)
I didn't express myself correctly. I mean to say "Call it a warning, if you wish".
pick a bone would be a more common expression.
In regards to this:
But if you change the order, and place the direct object before the verb, then you must also include the pronoun, as a warning, if you wish:
Did you mean we must or we may? (The "must" makes it sound mandatory, but the "if you wish" makes it sound optional.)
lazarus1907 said:
samdie said:
For somebody who describes is Spanish level as "beginner" you seem to be surprisingly well informed. That being the case, I'll pick a small nit with your English. It would be much better if you were to say "It's no wonder that we poor ..."
Surely it has been a coincidence, because if a foreigner came to me, and used that expression naturally, I'd be really scared.
>
samdie said:
For somebody who describes is Spanish level as "beginner" you seem to be surprisingly well informed. That being the case, I'll pick a small nit with your English. It would be much better if you were to say "It's no wonder that we poor ..."
Surely it has been a coincidence, because if a foreigner came to me, and used that expression naturally, I'd be really scared.
tad said:
it's no wonder us poor English speakers get confused sometimes
For somebody who describes is Spanish level as "beginner" you seem to be surprisingly well informed. That being the case, I'll pick a small nit with your English. It would be much better if you were to say "It's no wonder that we poor ..."
tad said:
Would they do it in Madrid for example? (it's no wonder us poor English speakers get confused sometimes)
Actually, Tad, I think Madrid is a place where you can hear leísmo all the time!
(No problem posting threads. )
Thanks again.
*
P.S. A funny way to say "reluctantly" is "a regañadientes".*
Yes, I've come across this one. 
