Practicar y olvidar, and placement of 'no'
Hola,
Tengo otra pregunta:
Quiero decir:
If i don't practice, I will forget.
puedo decir:
Si no yo practico, olvidaré
or
Si yo no practico, olvidaré
Gracias,
Martyn.
23 Answers
Just to finish this, I'll add some remarks from a very old grammar I have (that the RAE used as a template):
The pronoun objects are used:
:
a) Cuando se quiere hacer resaltar la participación del sujeto en la acción, como insistiendo en que es aquél y no otro. Este empleo enfático, Ejemplos: yo lo be dicho; tú lo sabias; vosotros sois culpables; nosotros venceremos. A menudo queremos presentar en contraste la actitud de un sujeto con la de otro u otros: Pues yo no transigiría; tú te quedarás en casa, es decir «respecto a mí, a ti», «en lo que a mi o a ti se refiere». La insistencia en el sujeto puede determinar la repetición del pronombre (yo, yo lo diré) o el empleo de palabras de refuerzo como mismo, propio, que añaden matices especiales: ella misma hablará; el propio interesado debe firmar. b) Cuando pueda haber ambigüedad: ya decía yo (él, ella, usted); Luis y Rosa se encontraron en la calle, él dijo que estaba esperando desde las ocho, donde si no empleásemos el sujeto, no se sabría quién dijo. Por esto es necesaria la determinación especial del sujeto en las terceras personas, si por el contexto no resulta suficientemente determinado, ya que las terceras personas pueden ser muchas. Fuera de estos casos, el empleo del sujeto unido a la forma verbal comunica al estilo español extraordinaria pesadez.
*The context I had in mind (which is buried somewhere in an earlier post) is:
A: He doesn't practice Spanish, and he never forgets anything!
B: If I don't practice, I'll forget
I meant the contrast to be between the 'I' and the other 'he'.*
Ah, I remember that now, and I see what you meant.
In that case, I wonder if a native speaker might say something like this:
A: ÿl no practica el español, ¡pero no olvida nada!
B: Por mi parte, si no practico, pronto se me olvida lo que he aprendido.
The "por mi parte" could be replaced with other such emphasizers. We might even be able to say "Yo no (soy así). Si no practico..." But you get the idea.
By the way, in the example sentence I gave in my earlier post, it would probably sound better to say "Si no lo hago yo, ¿quién lo hará'"
This is in textbooks too, unfortunately. Lots of examples like this:
Yo como.
Ella come.
Too bad . . .
Martyn said:
Natasha said:
Martyn had a point, though: in a "typical" beginner's Spanish class, it is taught that a pronoun like "yo" is optional. As a result, English speakers keep on using it, because they are used to having the pronouns in English. So, as it is clear that you (Lazarus) are correct, why are some teachers of Spanish propogating this error''? Any ideas?
Thanks Natasha - you've made my point for me!
I am being taught that the 'yo' should be ommitted almost all of the time, but that I could use it sparingly to make a point.
That is certainly what my counsellor is saying - and I'm wondering why she is still telling me it's ok, when the consensus here is that it is far from ok!
I accept that people are saying it sounds weird, so I won't use it - I'm just confused about why I'm being taught it's ok.
Thanks for all your comments.
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Eddy said:
Martyn You mention you are using a Spanish councellor. Just out of interest, is the councellor Spanish or some other nationality? Also more to the point, does he/she have qualifications to teach Spanish.
Now those are very interesting questions, to which I don't know the answer!
But I will found out.
It's an online thing... We've never met, but I've spoken to her on the phone once.
Thanks James. I can see the difference, I think I understand you very well.
The context I had in mind (which is buried somewhere in an earlier post) is:
A: He doesn't practice Spanish, and he never forgets anything!
B: If I don't practice, I'll forget
I meant the contrast to be between the 'I' and the other 'he'.
But I see that the contrast can be seen as the 'I' in the first clause and the same 'I' in the second - therefore, no contrast at all, thus the weirdness.
Actually, reading the context like that, it does sound odd in English as well. (Perhaps "If I didn't practice, I would forget" is better.)
Nevertheless, I've learnt something useful!
Thanks again.
Martyn
You mention you are using a Spanish councellor. Just out of interest, is the councellor Spanish or some other nationality? Also more to the point, does he/she have qualifications to teach Spanish.
Martyn, no one has explicitly explained why it sounds odd in this particular context.
You wrote: "Si yo no practico, olvidaré."
Here, the second clause is olvidaré, the subject of which is yo, so it sounds odd to put emphasis on the subject of the first clause, both in Spanish and in English. Read aloud the following.
If I don't practice, I'll forget.
See what I mean? The person hearing this would think, "Why is he stressing "I" when it doesn't contrast with anyone else'" (since the subject of both clauses is the same).
However, if the sentence were, say, "Si yo no lo hago, ¿quién lo hará'," the yo does not sound odd, because it is contrasting the subject yo with someone else ("who" in this case).
Does this clarify it at all for you'
Natasha said:
Martyn had a point, though: in a "typical" beginner's Spanish class, it is taught that a pronoun like "yo" is optional. As a result, English speakers keep on using it, because they are used to having the pronouns in English. So, as it is clear that you (Lazarus) are correct, why are some teachers of Spanish propogating this error''? Any ideas?
Thanks Natasha - you've made my point for me!
I am being taught that the 'yo' should be ommitted almost all of the time, but that I could use it sparingly to make a point.
That is certainly what my counsellor is saying - and I'm wondering why she is still telling me it's ok, when the consensus here is that it is far from ok!
I accept that people are saying it sounds weird, so I won't use it - I'm just confused about why I'm being taught it's ok.
Thanks for all your comments.
Martyn had a point, though: in a "typical" beginner's Spanish class, it is taught that a pronoun like "yo" is optional. As a result, English speakers keep on using it, because they are used to having the pronouns in English. So, as it is clear that you (Lazarus) are correct, why are some teachers of Spanish propogating this error''? Any ideas?
It's presumably the reason why this is one of the most common errors corrected in the "Proofreading" category.
lazarus1907 said:
Martyn said:
I asked my Spanish counsellor about this, and she said: 'Normalmente no necesitamos usar el pronombre, pero puedes usarlo para poner más énfasis en la frase.'.
Yes, for emphasis, but the result could sound like this for a native:
I am tired, because I work a lot. (no emphasis)
I, unlike others, am tired because I, unlike others, work a lot. (with emphasis)
You surely don't want to sound like that. It makes sense if you want to compare yourself with others, or if you are think you are the centre of the universe.
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Martyn said:
I asked my Spanish counsellor about this, and she said: 'Normalmente no necesitamos usar el pronombre, pero puedes usarlo para poner más énfasis en la frase.'.
Yes, for emphasis, but the result could sound like this for a native:
I am tired, because I work a lot. (no emphasis)
I, unlike others, am tired because I, unlike others, work a lot. (with emphasis)
You surely don't want to sound like that. It makes sense if you want to compare yourself with others, or if you are think you are the centre of the universe.
Si,yo no lo practico , lo olvidaré.
Gus, this sentence is weird because of the misplaced commas.
you meant that, it is not acceptableto say, si no lo practico lo olvidare?
Heidita said:
Gus said:
how about this,Si,yo no lo practico , lo olvidaré
Hi gus, the commas here are misplaced and the sentence doesn't make sense.I would suggest and his can be done:Si no practico yo, olvido todo lo que me han eseñado.The stress, especially in spoken language, lies specifically on "yo" here.
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Martyn said:
Hola:I asked my Spanish counsellor about this, and she said:'Normalmente no necesitamos usar el pronombre, pero puedes usarlo para poner más énfasis en la frase.'.
I mean, the pronoun can be used, but really only for specific cases of emphasis. In your sentence it would definitely sound awkward.
It is difficult to say "only for emphasis" as as student of Spanish does know how to not apply this . So, follow Lazarus's advice, simply forget about the pronoun.
Gus said:
how about this,Si,yo no lo practico , lo olvidaré
Hi gus, the commas here are misplaced and the sentence doesn't make sense.
I would suggest and his can be done:
Si no practico yo, olvido todo lo que me han eseñado.
The stress, especially in spoken language, lies specifically on "yo" here.
how about this,
Si,yo no lo practico , lo olvidaré
