guacamole, guadalupe, guapo
Why do I hear so many native speakers of Spanish, mostly from Mexico, pronounce these words as Wacamole, Wadalupe, and Wapo, when the dictionary says it is supposed to be gooacamole, gooadalupe, and gooapo'? I've been pronouncing these words with the W sound at the beginning and now there's this discord in my office as to the "correct" pronunciation.
22 Answers
That's very wise. "Do what the people around me will understand" is the best answer. I have been pronouncing this way for a long time and it feels normal to me. I don't intend to change, and native speakers never have any problem understanding me. Thank you for the very wise input.
Just pronounce what the people will understand you. The concept is that " what the normal people will do at the same situation". You said, more people around you prounced "W", then w is corrected in your situation. It is not a good idea to do something that people around you will not understand what you are saying.
Heidita said:
Why is everybody talking about Chinese now? Come on, open a new thread!
Threads evolve. That's a normal part of forum threads. There has been no distinct break in this thread.
Why is everybody talking about Chinese now? Come on, open a new thread!
Among linguists, Mandarin, and Cantonese are both dialects of old Chinese.
As I said, it is a very subjective matter. I can see both sides of the argument for the above pair.
They are dialects of the same language. They have the same orthography but different pronunciation.
That's not exactly right. It would be closer to say that Cantonese has no orthography, and uses Mandarin. It is true that a native of Guangzhou can read a Beijing newspaper even though Beijingese speech is completely unintelligible to him, but that is only because he has learned to read the Mandarin orthography. For example, "thank you" in Mandarin is xie xie, which is written as '', the same character repeated, and means, literally, "gratitude gratitude." However, "thank you" in Cantonese is something like m'goi, which is not the same character repeated. However, it is written in "Cantonese" exactly the same way as in Mandarin. That is, the Mandarin is forcibly overlaid on the Cantonese.
I agree that many linguists consider Cantonese and Mandarin to be dialects, but that is more of a convention, since they are almost 100% unintelligible in speech, so if they are only dialects, and not separate languages, then Spanish and Portuguese are the same language with just regional variations. It's all subjective.
I will concede that in many circles, the term "dialect" is used where I would say "accent".
But using "accent" is just incorrect. The word accent refers only to minor variations in pronunciation. Therefore, people in California, Minnesota, Mississippi, and New York all have different accents, but no one, no one, would say they speak different languages or even dialects. A dialect must entail not only a different accent, but also a different vocabulary, and maybe even different grammar. Zumo is used in Spain, and jugo is used in other countries. That is not a difference in "accent."
Among linguists, Mandarin, and Cantonese are both dialects of old Chinese. They are dialects of the same language. They have the same orthography but different pronunciation. Likewise, Taiwanese is a dialect of old Chinese. Today, the langauge that linguists would call Chinese, has few if any native speakers. Most if not all are now speaking dialects, especially one of the aforementioned three. The distinction is between common usage and linguists' terminology. Thanks to everybody for stimulating discussion.
James said:
Not to beat a dead horse, because what we're arguing here is only significat semantically, but there are dialects that are mutually unintelligible that are not considered separate languages. In one sense, they could be considered different languages even if they are mutually completely intelligible. I will concede that in many circles, the term "dialect" is used where I would say "accent". Since the purpose of language is to communicate, I stand corrected in trying to correct message posters. However, among linguists, a dialect is a branch of the same language that is unintelligible to speakers of another branch. For example, there are many regional dialects in Italy, and they are all pretty much unintelligible, but they are all still Italian. The quality of being mutually unintelligible does not in itself suffice to classify a completely different language in the terminology of linguists. Granted, it's common sense to consider them different languages, since they are not mutually intelligible. However, Spanish and Portuguese are mutually intelligible (maybe not 100%, but for the most part) but that does not make them the same language.
James Santiago said:
James said:
BTW, strictly speaking, different dialects are mutually unintelligible, so it would actually be different accents.
I don't think that's correct. Here is the definition of dialect.A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the culture in which it exists: Cockney is a dialect of English.If two languages are mutually unintelligible, such as Mandarin and Cantonese, they are separate languages. That's pretty much the definition of a language. Of course, there are many gray areas, because whether languages are actually mutually intelligible is subjective. I don't understand some Australian, Kiwi, and British English words, but I understand more than enough to consider them dialects of my language. The English spoken in some Caribbean islands is much more difficult for me to understand, so I'm not sure whether it crosses over from being a dialect to being a separate language. Furthermore, many Spanish speakers tell me they understand a large proportion of Portuguese and Italian, so again, there could be debate about these, although virtually everyone agrees that these are distinct languages and not dialects. So, it's a continuum. But for two speech sets to be dialects, there MUST be at least a considerable amount of mutual intelligibility.
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Not to beat a dead horse, because what we're arguing here is only significat semantically, but there are dialects that are mutually unintelligible that are not considered separate languages. In one sense, they could be considered different languages even if they are mutually completely intelligible. I will concede that in many circles, the term "dialect" is used where I would say "accent". Since the purpose of language is to communicate, I stand corrected in trying to correct message posters. However, among linguists, a dialect is a branch of the same language that is unintelligible to speakers of another branch. For example, there are many regional dialects in Italy, and they are all pretty much unintelligible, but they are all still Italian. The quality of being mutually unintelligible does not in itself suffice to classify a completely different language in the terminology of linguists. Granted, it's common sense to consider them different languages, since they are not mutually intelligible. However, Spanish and Portuguese are mutually intelligible (maybe not 100%, but for the most part) but that does not make them the same language.
James Santiago said:
James said:
BTW, strictly speaking, different dialects are mutually unintelligible, so it would actually be different accents.
I don't think that's correct. Here is the definition of dialect.A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the culture in which it exists: Cockney is a dialect of English.If two languages are mutually unintelligible, such as Mandarin and Cantonese, they are separate languages. That's pretty much the definition of a language. Of course, there are many gray areas, because whether languages are actually mutually intelligible is subjective. I don't understand some Australian, Kiwi, and British English words, but I understand more than enough to consider them dialects of my language. The English spoken in some Caribbean islands is much more difficult for me to understand, so I'm not sure whether it crosses over from being a dialect to being a separate language. Furthermore, many Spanish speakers tell me they understand a large proportion of Portuguese and Italian, so again, there could be debate about these, although virtually everyone agrees that these are distinct languages and not dialects. So, it's a continuum. But for two speech sets to be dialects, there MUST be at least a considerable amount of mutual intelligibility.
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Trivia regarding the word guapo:
The soft pronunciation of the G is also found in some Italian dialects, and this is where we got the word wop (derogatory name for Italians). Says Wiki:
The Neapolitan word "guappo" means "a person who flaunts an overbearingly cocky and swaggering attitude." In Italy, the term "guappo" is still used, often sarcastically, to describe those young native men who really try hard to act brave, play cool, court every pretty girl, and those that are arrogant to the point of inducing a fight.
It was brought to the USA by early Italian immigrants from the province of Campania, who named those suspected to belonging to the Guapperia 'Guappi', in a similar fashion the Sicilians used the term 'Mafiosi'. Widely used in Chicago where most immigrants from Campania settled - one of its native sons Al Capone was a typical Guappo - it was confused by the non-Italian population to indicate people of Italian origins.
The distinction is also complicated by the widespread use of "dialect" in such situations as you describe (Mandarin/Cantonese and Hakka and Fukenese). Dona Leon (who writes murder mysteries set in Venice) frequently has some character make reference to the Venetian "dialect" being unintelligible to other Italians. Nonetheless, I normally make the same distinction as James Santiago when talking to other language "enthusiasts" (or to myself).
James said:
BTW, strictly speaking, different dialects are mutually unintelligible, so it would actually be different accents.
I don't think that's correct. Here is the definition of dialect.
A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the culture in which it exists: Cockney is a dialect of English.
If two languages are mutually unintelligible, such as Mandarin and Cantonese, they are separate languages. That's pretty much the definition of a language. Of course, there are many gray areas, because whether languages are actually mutually intelligible is subjective. I don't understand some Australian, Kiwi, and British English words, but I understand more than enough to consider them dialects of my language. The English spoken in some Caribbean islands is much more difficult for me to understand, so I'm not sure whether it crosses over from being a dialect to being a separate language. Furthermore, many Spanish speakers tell me they understand a large proportion of Portuguese and Italian, so again, there could be debate about these, although virtually everyone agrees that these are distinct languages and not dialects. So, it's a continuum. But for two speech sets to be dialects, there MUST be at least a considerable amount of mutual intelligibility.
Thanks to everybody for the input. It seems to be regional variation. Too bad folks from some regions have to look down on the accents of folks from others. (myself included...some accents of English just drive me nuts) BTW, strictly speaking, different dialects are mutually unintelligible, so it would actually be different accents.
My in laws are from mexico and they do not say wuatamala. They say it with a "J" pronunciation like Juatamala if anything. I guess it would depend on the part of mexico? I work with a woman from Belise (horrible spelling right') haha and she speaks a different dialect than my husband who is from Jalisco. I agree with SoKuhl.
Nothing strange with that. Actually, it was proposed the spelling "Güisqui" for "Whisky", but it was not very popular. The combination GU (when the "u" retains its individual sound) is pretty close to the W, specially if the G is soft, and particularly in the sequence GUA, where the W sound is naturally present.
I finally took time to listen to the word here, but I hear nothing wrong with it. It doesn't sound to me like there is an extra syllable, and the G sound is what I have found to be standard (although the softer G is also common).
this is very simple, in Mexico, there are a lot of different forms of pronunciation, there are very different accents in the north, in middle Mexico, in south and in southeast. Both pronunciations are well pronounced, no need to discuss. The consonants sound very different if you hear Spanish from Spain, Colombia, Argentina, or Chile too.
