My latest question on pronoun order

Question

A number of times I have tried to find a sentence that has to break either RID order or Benjamin and Butt order- Ken and I discussed it in a thread recently.

http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/295329/advanced-usage-of-multiple-object-pronouns-in-spanish

I commented that no matter what, if a sentence would break one or the other, a native will always change it so that it matches both and breaks neither. Got my opportunity again:

I don't know what brought you to me

I tried:

No sé qué me te llevó- this is classic RID order me- indirect before te- direct.

I could have tried Benjamin and Butt-

No sé qué te me llevó. But then it sounds like what brought me to you. But it does match the Benjamin and Butt rule- te always before me.

Heidita’s suggestion:

No sé lo que fue que te llevó a mí

So the answer I always get, break out of the contradiction by getting rid of the pronoun.

Now all teaching says that is not legal. This is Izanoni, who I trust almost as much as Lazarus:

http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/190367/redundant-use-of-indirect-object-pronouns

Obligatory:

1). The Indirect object is a personal pronoun (prepositional pronoun)

Examples:

a). A mí me dieron el dinero. ? They gave me the money

b). Me dio el libro a mí. ? He gave me the book.

Now look at:

Me llevaron el libro a mí. They brought the book to me.

Me lo llevaron a mí. They brought it to me.

But change lo to te, they brought you to me:

Me te llevaron a mí.

Te me llevaron a mí.

Or simply

Te llevaron a mí.

Which work(s). Each breaks a different rule I have learned.

Dude, you're making my brain hurt! ;-) - Winkfish, Aug 17, 2017

Lol You have a knack for asking awesome questions! - rac1, Aug 17, 2017

Answer 1

I don't know what brought you to me I would use the verb "traer" or bring.

No sé qué te trajo a mi.

All the construction down here is wrong for me even if I accepted the verb "llevar".

No sé qué me te llevó- (wrong) In any case it would be No sé qué me llevó a ti.

As for"No sé qué te me llevó", it's very unlikely someone will say something like this. If this happens it would mean something like:

I don't know what took you from me.

Me llevaron el libro ( a mi) They took the book to/from me. (I'll also accept brought)
Me lo llevaron. (a mi). They took it from /to me. (I'll accept brought too)
They brought you to me. Te trajeron a mi. (I'll accept llevaron too)

Remember that in general "traer" is to bring from what is far to what is near you.

****Remember that in general "llevar" is to take from what is near you to what is far from you ****

Gracias. :) - bosquederoble, Aug 16, 2017

Answer 2

No sé lo que me trajiste/llevaste. I don't know what you brought for me. Some people might prefer just "qué" as opposed to "lo que"

Your last three sentences, "**Me te llevaron a mí.

Te me llevaron a mí.**"

Or simply

Te llevaron a mí. This is OK.

These last examples except the "te llevaron a mí" (which does make sense) may be technically correct. I am not that much of a grammar guru, but I know the first two, are not used by any Spanish speaker I know. Maybe Lazarus or Heidi knows some one who does. My Department Head doesn't like it either.

One other legal but "goofy" possibility is "A mí me llevaron a tí" with the "a" in the "a ti" being the personal "a." That's probably how I would have said it as a child.

It is not "I don't know what you brought for me". The English I am trying for is " I do not know what brought you to me". :) - - bosquederoble, Aug 16, 2017

Entonces, sería: "No sé qué nos ha reunido." There are just some things that don't get said the same way as in Enlgish. - Daniela2041, Aug 16, 2017

Or if you really want the "word-for-word," No sé qué te trajo/llevó a mí. - Daniela2041, Aug 16, 2017

Yep, and with that last my question is why does the "a mí" not require a "me" in front of the verb. Lo llevó a mí or me lo llevó a mí. Why does it differ if you change lo for te. :) - bosquederoble, Aug 16, 2017

As I have said, I am not a grammar guru as Lazarus is, I don't know why most Spanish speakers don't put the extra "me' in there. It just sounds weird. - Daniela2041, Aug 16, 2017

I was going to add, my question is of course rhetorical, it is just how people speak. But it is clear not to mix tea and - bosquederoble, Aug 16, 2017

I am on a mobile device, and they are barely controllable, mix te and me. :) - bosquederoble, Aug 16, 2017

So I am getting my answer from your comments. I cannot say why I do anything in English, I just say what is right. Why it is right I don't know, but it is. :) - bosquederoble, Aug 16, 2017

Answer 3

"Me te llevaron a mí" and "Te me llevaron a mí" are extremely weird constructions. I once knew a kid that had some sort of speech impediment, and he would say things like that, but generally speaking, no. Nobody would say that.

Nevertheless, language is never completely rigid. There are general rules and guidelines, and there are always exceptions and counterexamples.

Which is why I've never bothered to learn any rules, and I don't answer grammar questions. I just listen, and read, and try to learn what sounds and feels"right".

No as I have said, no one likes anything that does not follow both my rules, but if you pick the third option you break another rule. I am just trying to see what rules are stronger. : - bosquederoble, Aug 16, 2017

I don't know much about rules either, but the third option is the only one that makes sense. - 00fac92a, Aug 16, 2017

Yah - Gekkosan, Aug 16, 2017

Answer 4

I was just thinking....

Te me llevaron .

that is a correct structure and sentence.

But it means: they took you away from me. You might have thought: they brought you to me.

It's not something you would say in an everyday conversation, but it sounds ok.

De acuerdo, probablemente es "correcto". Pero ¿quién habla así? Yo creo que dada la oportunidad, cualquiera busca otra forma de decir lo mismo. - Gekkosan, Aug 17, 2017

And how would you say they took me away from you? In the same way of saying it? - bosquederoble, Aug 17, 2017

Me llevaron lejos de ti. - polenta1, Aug 17, 2017

Answer 5

We can safely assume that perhaps the author had been indulging a bit heavily on recreational psychotropics at the time. - Gekkosan

I will save this for further usage

jejejeje, a ver si se deja caer laza...dirá algo similar.

Rofl - rac1, Aug 17, 2017

Answer 6

I found a similar thread answered by Lazarus.

**el orden de los pronombres**

this is also very interesting.

[Te me criticaron][2]

[2]: https://books.google.es/books?id=mEfKAgAAQBAJ&lpg=PA143&ots=kF8DAFKC2c&dq;="te me criticaron"&hl=es&pg=PA143#v=onepage&q="te me criticaron"&f=false

ok, can't get the link to stick, just copy and paste, it works. - 006595c6, Aug 16, 2017

The second is precisely the book I am quoting. :) - bosquederoble, Aug 17, 2017

The first is useful, it says what gekkosan says, just don't say it that way. :) - bosquederoble, Aug 17, 2017

Based on those links, it'd appear that the ONLY place where such strange constructions have ever been used is in that book. We can safely assume that perhaps the author had been indulging a bit heavily on recreational psychotropics at the time. - Gekkosan, Aug 17, 2017

:-) - Echoline, Aug 17, 2017

Answer 7

I have called lazarus to this thread, let's see if he can say something about what rule applies here

Yeah - rac1, Aug 17, 2017

Answer 8

Okay to sum up, traer might work better in the example, and don’t combine te and me.

So:

¿Qué te trajó trajo a mí? What brought you to me?

Now what brought it/him/her to me:

¿Qué me lo trajó trajo (a mí)?

I am assuming with this last I cannot write:

¿Qué lo trajó trajo a mí? (This needs the me, correct?)

And the rule to not combine te and mí outweighs the rule to use an indirect pronoun for a prepositional pronoun (a plus pronoun)?

That seems to be the consensus of all, to my understanding.

Actually, all three are correct, except there's no accent in "trajo". Other than that, all work, although I'd prefer "qué lo trajo a mí" over "qué me lo trajo" - context could make a difference. - Gekkosan, Aug 16, 2017

I am trying for the verb in a third person past, if need be change all qué to quién and keep trajó. :) - bosquederoble, Aug 16, 2017

Nevertheless, "trajo" is never accented. - Gekkosan, Aug 16, 2017

Yes, I seem to have forgotten some basics about the preterit irregulars. Sorry, Thanks. :) - bosquederoble, Aug 16, 2017

It would have been traigo as first person indicative, I don't know what I was thinking. - bosquederoble, Aug 16, 2017

Interesting that even with the lo, you prefer not to include me. :) - bosquederoble, Aug 16, 2017

The "me" is just redundant. - Gekkosan, Aug 16, 2017

The rules say it is the "a mí" that is redundant, and that "me" is required. So much for rules. :) - bosquederoble, Aug 17, 2017

Answer 9

Now what brought it/him/her to me:

¿Qué me lo trajó trajo (a mí)?This is for it and he. If it is her it's me la trajo

I am assuming with this last I cannot write:

¿Qué lo trajó trajo a mí? (This needs the me, correct?)
This one is discussable because if you have a mi, the me is not so necessary but possible.

All the grammar training I have says the me is necessary, only the a mí is optional. :) - bosquederoble, Aug 17, 2017

Answer 10

So my grammar book has:

They criticized me to you: te me criticaron

And they say the same would be They criticized you to me : te me criticaron

With only context separating them.

From the responses above, I wonder if :

Me criticaron a ti

And

Te criticaron a mí

Would be better?

I have no idea whether there's an obscure rule that actually permits that, but it sounds extremely weird, and I'd never say anything like any of the examples above, and probably would not understand what they mean if someone said it to me.

Then again, even the English expression is strange and awkward to my eyes...

If, for some reason, I wanted to say something as strange as "They criticized me to you", I'd most likely say "they spoke critically about me to you", which I may translate as something like: "me estuvieron criticando contigo", or, much more naturally, "te estuvieron hablando mal de mí". So although the construction may or may not be theoretically possible, you also need to consider what's likely to sound good or natural to your audience.

The particular examples that you selected, therefore, could be academically discussed, and perhaps Lazarus can shed more light on whether they're technically permissible or not - but to me they sound forced, unnatural and unlikely both in English and in Spanish.

Yes, rules are only an approximation to help people past the point of learning by instinct to avoid sounding like complete idiots to the people who speak a language naturally. :) - bosquederoble, Aug 17, 2017

i have a different view, based on my own learning experience. I always found "rules" difficult to learn and memorize. Particularly in English, where each rule goes hand in hand with a myriad exceptions. - Gekkosan, Aug 17, 2017

So I learned by listening carefully and reading a lot. Lots of radio and TV, until I got a feel for how things are supposed to be used. Of course I had formal learning, but I could never learn any grammar rules. - Gekkosan, Aug 17, 2017

Answer 11

So my grammar book has:

They criticized me to you: te me criticaron

And they say the same would be They criticized you to me : te me criticaron

With only context separating them.

From the responses above, I wonder if :

Me criticaron a ti

And

Te criticaron a mí

Would be better?

I found a thread with an answer by lazarus, have a look, I hope I can get him to look at the thread. - 006595c6, Aug 16, 2017