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Advanced Usage of Multiple Object Pronouns in Spanish

Advanced Usage of Multiple Object Pronouns in Spanish

4
votes

I found the following in "A New Reference Grammar of Modern Spanish" (Butt & Benjamin) I thought it was a very interesting treatment of multiple object pronouns so I thought I would share it here. It may provide some useful "thought fodder" for advanced students. Something might even stir a disagreement among the natives. smile jejejeje

Please note that when sentences in the latter paragraphs are preceded by * or ? / ¿?they are considered wrong or in some cases, at least highly unusual / questionable.

11.12 Order of object pronouns

The invariable order of object pronouns when two or more appear together is:

1 se, if it occurs comes first

2 te/os second-person precedes

3 me/nos first-person

4 le/lo/la/les/los/las and third-person pronouns come last:

María te lo dijo. Maria told it to you.
Me lo habré dejado en casa. I must have left it at home.
No querían comunicárnoslo. They didn't want to tell it to us
¿Por qué no se lo prueba? Why don't you try it on?
Se te ha caído la tinta. You've dropped the ink.
Nos los vamos a comprar. We're going to buy them for ourselves.
Se nos ha vuelto listísimo. He's turned into a genius ‘on us’
Yo me le fui encima, pero ella chilló. (J. Cortázar, Arg.)
Spain: Yo me le eché encima. I lunged at her, but she screamed.
¿Se te ha comido la lengua el gato? Has the cat eaten your tongue?

(i) The combinations of two indirect object pronouns is quite rare in Peninsular Spanish, but not unknown: te le dieron una paliza terrible ‘they gave him/her a terrific blow “on you”/“for you”’, échamele un vistazo a esta carta ‘have a look at this letter for me’; hágasemeles un buen recibimiento ‘make sure for me that they get a good reception’ (from GDLE 30.7.1.2). But in practice it is usually avoided when the first pronoun is not me , so the following are not found: * te le dieron malas notas ‘they gave him/her bad grades “on you”’, * nos te dieron una multa ‘they gave you a fine “on us”’. In Spain le is constantly used as a direct object pronoun referring to human males, so the following is possible: al abuelo nos le llevamos de vacaciones todos los años ‘we take grandfather with us on holiday every year’. But even this is usually avoided by replacing the le with lo : al abuelo nos lo llevamos . . .

(ii) Reversal of the correct order with se , e.g. ? me se ha caído for se me ha caído ‘I've dropped it’ (lit. ‘it's fallen down “on me”’), ?¿ me se oye? for ¿se me oye? ‘can anyone hear me?’/‘is anyone listening?’, is a well-known mistake of uneducated speech.

(iii) In all the examples given, the pronouns are in the order indirect object—direct object ( te lo doy ‘I give it to you’, se lo tragaron ‘they swallowed it’, etc.). However, if te me criticaron means ‘they criticized you to me’ (IO-DO), how does one say ‘they criticized me to you’ (DO-IO)? Apparently the same order is used for both meanings, so te me be understood as ‘. . . me to you’: the GDLE 19.5.7 can find no explanation for this breakdown in the normal rules of pronoun order. In practice the problem is avoided, e.g. by dropping the te and simply saying me recomendaron , etc. There is no problem if the verb-form makes the meaning clear: ¡qué guapa te me has puesto! displays the unusual order direct object-indirect object, but can only mean ‘how attractive you have become for/to me!’ In the case of pronominal verbs of motion, the ‘reflexive’ pronoun (here te ) is certainly not a direct object (it is not clear what it is), so no te me escaparás ‘you won't escape from me’, te me fuiste de casa ‘you left home “on me”’ are normal.

(iv) One can never join these unstressed pronouns with ‘and’, ‘but’ or any other word: ‘I saw him and her’ is never * lo y la vi . The only possibility is to use the contrastive forms ( 11.15 a): lo/le vi a él y la vi a ella or los vi a él y a ella . ‘I saw him but not her’ is lo/le vi a él pero no a ella .

(v) Identical pronouns cannot appear side by side, so combinations like me me, se se cannot occur (see 26.11 for how to avoid the latter). This also applies to combinations lo/la/los/las with le or les .

1572 views
updated Aug 7, 2017
edited by DilKen
posted by DilKen
Thank you, Ken. :) - rac1, Aug 7, 2017
Thank you, Ken. Very interesting. - Echoline, Aug 7, 2017

6 Answers

4
votes

I questioned regarding this in the past, starting in 2014, and imagined combinations of pronouns that could not meet both the RID order and the Benjamin and Butt order- which is possible but hard. Everytime I came up with a possible combination the native speakers would change it in a way that avoided the conflict, up to just dropping a redundant indirect pronoun, but including things like sending one pronoun to a preposition (such as de mí, to remove me as an indirect object).

See these:

http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/264930/personal-pronoun-order

http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/264964/pronoun-order-revisited

http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/283943/he-sold-me-to-him

Do keep in mind native speakers do this instinctively, and are not going to be able to say they use one rule or another, they do not use a rule. We make up rules to try to understand what they do instinctively. You do not think about a rule when you decide you get in a car or canoe, but on a bus or a raft. Most English speakers do not even know the rule there.

updated Aug 7, 2017
edited by bosquederoble
posted by bosquederoble
Bosque: Here's another little brain-twister. One cannibal talking to another using the verb comerse. I ate him all up for you. :) - DilKen, Aug 7, 2017
I use these instinctively but I have my own guidelines for my students, besides what is in the textbook. - Daniela2041, Aug 7, 2017
5
votes

What I want to point out is the "reversal of the correct order". There is a character on Argentinian TV called Minguito Tinguitella.He almost always said things like "me se ha caído": The actor was called Juan Carlos Altavista and his endearing character was well -known for his "incorrect Spanish".

updated Aug 7, 2017
posted by polenta1
1
vote

OK, here's a little brain-twister:

(Blame Bosque for putting me up to this with his other posts) smile

One cannibal says to another after just eating an entire man, using the verb comerse.

I ate him all up for you.

My guess, and avoiding the use of three pronouns, which I'm not sure is doable in this case....and using leísmo. smile

Me le comí para ti.

I don't think either "Te me le comí." or "Me te le comí" would be correct.

As as side note, I think por could be used instead or para.

Para - I did it for you...you benefited from the action of me eating him.

Por - I did it for you. (instead of you doing it, on your behalf or because of you)

updated Aug 7, 2017
edited by DilKen
posted by DilKen
"Por tí", para que no quedaran restos. - DonBigoteDeLaLancha, Aug 7, 2017
Would that be lo rather than le. Unless you are using leísmo? But yes, that is how they escape it, the conflict of the rules, things like para ti - bosquederoble, Aug 7, 2017
Bosque: yes lo instead of le. Le is due to leísmo. Not that cannibals would care probably about the impersonalization of the man. :) - DilKen, Aug 7, 2017
oh yes now I see that you had written leismo in your post. I read things too fast sometimes. :) - bosquederoble, Aug 7, 2017
1
vote

What I want to point out is the "reversal of the correct order". There is a character on Argentinian TV called Minguito Tinguitella.He almost always said things like "me se ha caído": The actor was called Juan Carlos Altavista and his endearing character was well -known for his "incorrect Spanish".

updated Aug 7, 2017
posted by polenta1
delete please - polenta1, Aug 7, 2017
1
vote

What I want to point out is the "reversal of the correct order". There is a character on Argentinian TV called Minguito Tinguitella.He almost always said things like "me se ha caído": The actor was called Juan Carlos Altavista and his endearing character was well -known for his "incorrect Spanish".

updated Aug 7, 2017
posted by polenta1
delete please - polenta1, Aug 7, 2017
1
vote

Very nice, ken, good knowledge , wow, impressive smile

updated Aug 7, 2017
posted by 006595c6