Is this an adjectival clause?

Question

If I want to say "I have never heard of a movie in which every character dies", would I use the subjunctive?

"Nunca he oído de una pelíucla en la que cada persona muere / muera".

I'm not sure if this constitutes an adjectival clause, so I can't figure out whether to use the indicative or the subjunctive.

Thank you!!

What a good question! :) - billygoat, Jul 29, 2017

Answer 1

To be more precise we should say "Does this sentence contain an adjectival clause."

I think it does... "en la que cada persona muere/muera" "in which every character dies"

What kind of movie? Short? Long? The kind in which none of the characters die? The kind in which every character dies?

Since you've never heard of such a movie, it may not exist, therefore it is only hypothetical and I would use the subjunctive.

Nunca he oído de una película en la que cada persona muera.

I have never heard of a movie in which every person dies.

Now let's say you just saw your first movie where everybody dies.

Nunca había oído de una película en la que cada person muere.

I had never heard of a movie in which every person dies.

I'm not a native speaker, so you may want to wait for other opinions.

Thank you so much! This is very helpful to me. I hadn't thought about the distinction between "I have" and "I had" for this situation, but it makes sense now. - elefantita, Jul 29, 2017

You win today's award for gratitude, ;) - DilKen, Jul 29, 2017

Except for not voting, :( - DilKen, Jul 29, 2017

I'll vote Ken. Cheers. - jellonz, Jul 29, 2017

I voted. Now you can smile again! - Echoline, Jul 29, 2017

Thanks Echo. I never stop smiling. :) - DilKen, Jul 29, 2017

Answer 2

Patch said:

"Nunca he oído de una pelíucla en la que cada persona muere / muera".

I've never heard of a film like that. I cannot declare that it exists so it should be subjunctive.I would have bet money it being subjuctive but Polenta (native Spanish speaker) says indicative.

All of us agree on this Patch...why? well...as Daniela said: it sounds better

Answer 3

I think that we would do good to have more native speakers weigh in on this particular thread. So, far, we have only one: Polenta.

Now you've got me too.! - Daniela2041, Jul 29, 2017

Two is definitely better than one! - DonBigoteDeLaLancha, Jul 30, 2017

Answer 4

I am not a native Spanish Speaker.

I tend toward the subjunctive because it sounds better in this case. Also, because the >movie is unknown. Is there such a move? Maybe so, many not.

I think "muera" is the correct choice.

I agree with you DonBigote.

"Nunca he oído de una pelíucla en la que cada persona muere / muera".

I've never heard of a film like that. I cannot declare that it exists so it should be subjunctive.I would have bet money it being subjuctive but Polenta (native Spanish speaker) says indicative.

I'm a bit confused here to be honest

Not every fluent Spanish speaker uses the subjunctive according to the textbooks 100% of the time. They are not necessarily wrong, the grammar books often oversimplify and don't always teach common usage. - DilKen, Jul 29, 2017

I have skimmed some scholarly papers on the internet in which the researchers posed a list of sentences to university students and asked them to choose between indicative and subjunctive. The splits ranges from 90/10 to nearly 50/50. - DilKen, Jul 29, 2017

Then they asked the students about their choice. In some cases they didn't know "the rule" but in other cases their explanations seemed valid and that they were thinking about the sentence differently and their choice gave the proper shade of meaning. - DilKen, Jul 29, 2017

In this case, for example, if someone used the indicative, they might be thinking that even though they've never seen such a movie, they are pretty sure they exist. Make sense? - DilKen, Jul 29, 2017

good thinking Ken. We must defer to native speakers on these matters - patch, Jul 29, 2017

Patch: in general I agree we need to defer. There are also a few cases when a native speaker learns something from us gringos about Spanish and they decide to at least try to follow the grammar book when they didn't before. :) - DilKen, Jul 29, 2017

Although the above is not my mission here. My number one mission is to learn Spanish. #2 is to help others learn Spanish. #3 is to help Spanish speakers learn English. :) - DilKen, Jul 29, 2017

You might wonder why I put #2 ahead of #3 instead of the other way around. Doing #2 helps me accomplish #1 much, much more than #3. :) - DilKen, Jul 29, 2017

I agree on the 3 points, and in that order. I have to help myself before I can help others - patch, Jul 29, 2017

Answer 5

I think it's an adjective clause at least in English but I'm not a grammar expert. I have one thing to say though. The word character is "personaje".

As a native speaker I would say muere in the indicative. But it's better if you pay attention to other people who know more grammar.

If I used muera or subjunctive it would be if it's eventually a possibility.

Muchas gracias Polenta :) - billygoat, Jul 29, 2017

Answer 6

Well, I am going to differ with everybody, jeje

Nobody over here would say "cada persona muere"

Ni cada personaje muere...

"I have never heard of a movie in which every character dies", would I use the subjunctive?

This is what a Spanish speaker would say (Spain)

Nunca he oído hablar de una película en la que todo el mundo muere. /en la que todos los personajes mueren.

Cada día voy a comprar ..it always sounds like en English translation to me.

we say: voy a comprar todos los días.

Definitely indicative.

Answer 7

I just have to get in my "two centavos' worth"

I agree with polenta that "the indicative muere" should be used.

"Nunca he oído de una pelíucla en la que cada persona muere / muera".

First of all I would get rid of "la que" and replace it with "que." then replace "persona" with "personaje."

The reason for the indicative "muere" is because "película is not the subject of the next verb!

This is not like. Nunca he oído de una película que tenga los subtitulos en polaco. Wherein "película" is the subject of the next verb. This one is a little trickier. I don't know what you call it, but to my Spanish ears, the indicative "muere" just sounds better.

Another native speaker to the rescue! Thank you very much Daniela :) - billygoat, Jul 29, 2017

This answer is going in my notes for future reference :) - billygoat, Jul 29, 2017

Dani: In the following comment I will post an example from Jehle which uses the subjunctive even when there is a change of subject. Maybe this is different or he is wrong but I thought you might like to consider it. - DilKen, Jul 30, 2017

No recomendamos ningún libro que él haya escrito. We don't recommend any book that he has written. - DilKen, Jul 30, 2017

This was from his article on adjective clauses for which I gave a link in an earlier answer to this thread. - DilKen, Jul 30, 2017

There is some difference between the two. In the book one the person is denying the existence of such a book. In the movie one the person is just saying they have never heard of such a movie but isn't denying the possibility of its existence. - DilKen, Jul 30, 2017

Isn't it possible that either could be correct. Subjunctive...never heard of such and don't think or not sure it exists. vs. indicative never heard of it but I'm pretty sure there is one somewhere. - DilKen, Jul 30, 2017

This is still different from the sentence in question where "película" is NOT the subject of the second verb. These sentences follow the general rule for subjunctive use. I wish I could explain better. I will think about it and try, - Daniela2041, Jul 30, 2017

Daniela, I understand better now with your “Nunca” example. The contrast between it ans the original makes it clear. - DonBigoteDeLaLancha, Jul 30, 2017

Answer 8

I hope someone can explain the use of commas in adjective clauses because I studied them and there are rules.

As I always say, native Spanish speakers don't know Spanish grammar as well as Spanish learners and viceversa too.

My sister, who works in a bank, is tall.

My sister who works in a bank is tall.

Two sentences. One with commas and the second without.

I remember the rule because foreigners are taught the foreign language. English in my case, but I don't know my own rules. Isn't it funny?

I think the rules are very similar in English and Spanish. The layman's version. When the clause is necessary for the sentence to make sense, do not use commas. When the clause if just extra, unnecessary information you must use commas. - DilKen, Jul 30, 2017

My sister, who works in a bank, is tall. The clause is not necessary information if you only have one sister. - DilKen, Jul 30, 2017

Yes, Dilken I was taught that. And what about the sentences above? - polenta1, Jul 30, 2017

My sister who works in a bank is tall. This information is necessary if you have another sister so we know which one you are talking about. - DilKen, Jul 30, 2017

I was already typing before you asked. :) - DilKen, Jul 30, 2017

My English teacher would give you an excellent but believe me many people failed to understand until with many exercises we could apply the rule. - polenta1, Jul 30, 2017

The sentences you posted provide a nice explanation of the difference. There are also many sentences which could only go with or without the commas. Here is an example of one which would never have a comma: - DilKen, Jul 30, 2017

I'm going out tonight with the man I met at the bank. It would never make sense to just say "I'm going out tonight with the man. So you would never use a comma in this situation. - DilKen, Jul 30, 2017

The technical terms for these types of clauses in Spanish are especificativas y explicativas. In English it is restrictive and non-restrictive. :) - DilKen, Jul 30, 2017

Or defining and non-defining relative clauses. - ian-hill, Jul 30, 2017

Answer 9

I don't think this English sentence "I have never heard of a movie in which every character dies", is an adjectival / relative clause because:

•First, it will contain a subject and verb.

•Next, it will begin with a relative pronoun [who, whom, whose, that, or which] or a relative adverb [when, where, or why].

•Finally, it will function as an adjective, answering the questions What kind? How many? or Which one?

A relative clause using "which" as the relative pronoun - always has a comma before the "which"

Relative clauses practice.

Sorry I think (not a grammar expert) that the adjective clasuse is "in which every character dies". Could it be? - polenta1, Jul 29, 2017

I mean the sentence " I have never ......... every character dies includes the subordinate clause I've mentioned above. By the way, we used to call them adjective clasuses and now it seems it's "adjectival". - polenta1, Jul 29, 2017

Polenta: both adjective clause or adjectival clause are common and correct. The first one has the noun adjective acting like an adjective. The second uses the adjective "adjectival" - DilKen, Jul 29, 2017

Better then . ian. True adjective as an adjective. I really think I know English grammar better than Spanish grammar. because I learned much more. lol - polenta1, Jul 30, 2017

Answer 10

To be honest, I would have said 'muera' off the cuff too.

Having thought about what Polenta is saying though, I can see why it would be indicative.

You are not saying that there no film exists, or even that you doubt a film exists; you are simply saying that you have never heard of such a film.

It is for this exact reason that I pay little attention to grammar text books and go by what native speakers say. Even if they are wrong (like we often are in English) at least it sounds natural to their ears. That will do for me lol.

Answer 11

I am not a native Spanish Speaker.

I tend toward the subjunctive because it sounds better in this case. Also, because the movie is unknown. Is there such a move? Maybe so, many not.

I think "muera" is the correct choice.

Answer 12

Here's a link you might like:

Subjunctive in adjectival clauses

Quoting the rules from the article:

The Subjunctive in Adjectival Clauses

Adjectives are words that modify a noun, describing or limiting it. Examples of adjectives are: the new hat, the pretty dress, many intelligent students. An entire clause may serve an adjectival purpose, describing a noun or pronoun —the antecedent.

The rule: In Spanish, the subjunctive is used in an adjectival clause when the antecedent is indefinite or unknown or is nonexistent or negated; in contrast, the indicative is used when the antecedent is a definite or existing one.

The indicative is used in an adjectival clause when there is a definite antecedent:

The subjunctive is used in an adjectival clause when there is an indefinite antecedent:

The full article can be viewed at the link with many examples.

This is a very good website with clearly written articles about Spanish grammar. You can follow the link at the bottom of the linked articles to view the other topics.

Answer 13

Sir Ian wrote:

I don't think this English sentence "I have never heard of a movie in which every character dies", is an adjectival / relative clause because:

•First, it will contain a subject and verb.

•Next, it will begin with a relative pronoun [who, whom, whose, that, or which] or a relative adverb [when, where, or why].

•Finally, it will function as an adjective, answering the questions What kind? How many? or Which one?

A relative clause using "which" as the relative pronoun - always has a comma before the "which"

I was not saying that the entire sentence was an adjectival clause, only the phrase: "in which every character dies" The poster would have been more precise if she asked "does this sentence contain an adjectival clause, but I knew what she meant.

Ian, if you agree that "in which" can be used at the start of an adjective clause (often as a slightly more formal version of "where") then we are probably in agreement. I provide the following for the edification of other members who are not English grammar experts such as yourself.

Here is a link in which the author indicates that "in which" can be used at the beginning of an adjective clause. He also shows several other prepositions that can precede "which". In parentheses I show how a single word could be used instead.

Adjective Clauses in English

Here are the examples he gives.

The building in which Lena works is on Central Avenue.
(The building where Lena works is on Central Avenue.)

They live in a building in which there are many apartments.
(They live in a building that has many apartments.)

I'll always remember the day on which we met.
(I'll always remember the day when we met.)

Autumn is the season during which the leaves of many trees change color.
(Autumn is the season when the leaves of many trees change color.)

"Which" must have a comma in front of it whenever it is used as a relatice clause "in which" does not. - ian-hill, Jul 29, 2017

But we can agree to be of different opinions. Such is English grammar. :) - ian-hill, Jul 29, 2017

I have never heard of a movie that every character dies in", I think is a better example. That does not require a comma. - ian-hill, Jul 29, 2017

Ian: I don't think we're disagreeing about much, but you're right, we can if we want to. You're right, with that, the preposition needs to come at the end, with which is needs to come before the which. - DilKen, Jul 30, 2017