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Simple Spam Deterrence.

Simple Spam Deterrence.

11
votes

Everyone is aware, or should be, of the continuing spam attacks that have been plaguing SD and consuming much of our Mods' time. It was good to read Stephanie's response to Ian's recent post on the matter, and to know that the SD team are working on a technical solution. In the meantime I'd just like to suggest a couple of relatively low-tech adjustments that should help deter spammers.

I think it's worth pointing out that these pests are spammers, not hackers, and where hackers might attack a system because it is hard, spammers will exploit a system because it is easy. Brick walls are needed to keep hackers out, but hurdles should deter most spammers. In this light I think it is the ease with which new users can join and post that needs to be addressed.

Obviously posting questions should not be made difficult, but allowing users to post new questions almost immediately is an open invitation to spam. At present there is an enforced 15 second delay, which in reality only serves to prevent automated posts crashing a system. As far as spamming goes it is no time to wait. So why not extend the delay time between posts to 15 minutes instead of 15 seconds? No legitimate user would post another question a mere 15 seconds after their last, and a 15 minute wait between posting questions is far from unreasonable. The infrastructure for a delay is already in place, so changing a parameter from 15 seconds to 15 minutes would not be difficult, but as a deterrent to spammers it would be significant.

The other problem is the ease with which new users can join and post. I set up an account a few moments ago and it took less than 30 seconds from start to being able to ask a question. Again, this is little deterrent for spammers, and once again a delay may help. Perhaps when a new user applies the SD system should either require more information, including fluency levels, human verification etc. or delay sending the confirmation link for 10 minutes, or both. These would only be minor inconveniences to somebody with a serious question, but would be further obstacles for spammers. Of course, a dedicated spammer could use this 10 minute window to create multiple usernames and then start posting on each, but with having to jump through extra hoops coupled with a 15 minute delay between posts, would they bother?

Total prevention may be difficult, but these minor changes should be easy to make and they would make the spammers' lives much harder.

As always, any comments or suggestions are welcome smile

879 views
updated Jul 25, 2017
edited by jellonz
posted by jellonz
Thank you for the suggestions. They all sound very reasonable to me. - Echoline, Jul 25, 2017
A significant delay before posting a question could have benefits. New users could be required to agree to the rules Then maybe more would actually search and read prior posts to see if they can find their answer as the rules currently require. - DilKen, Jul 25, 2017
Thanks Echo :) - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
Yes Ken, I agree totally. The other advantage of making the joining process a little more difficult would be that those looking to exploit the SD forum in other ways, eg translation service, homework, may also be deterred. - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
Great thread mate , I thank you for it . - ray76, Jul 25, 2017
Another 6 just hit the dust . - ray76, Jul 25, 2017
Cheers Ray, and good on ya mate. - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
The suggestion that DonBigoteDeLaLancha made on Captcha would be neat feature for this page. - NKM1974, Jul 25, 2017
Thanks for thread, jellonz. - Sassette, Jul 25, 2017
Lol...I thought you decided to quit banning and deleting these spammers, Ray. - rac1, Jul 25, 2017
Yes NKM. I can understand what Amber is saying about the owners not wanting to make the registration process more rigorous but in today's world some form of anti-bot defence during registration would seem wise. - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
De nada Sassy, y gracias :) - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
I just could not let them get on top of me Amber . - ray76, Jul 25, 2017
Thank you jellonz - a lot of common sense there. - ian-hill, Jul 25, 2017
Thanks Ian. - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017

8 Answers

8
votes

This is an excellent idea! It seems to me that these good-for-nothing sub-humans are basically lazy people with no life, so they take the path of least resistance. Why make it easy for them?

It's like marriage> It should be more difficult to enter and easier to exit.

updated Jul 25, 2017
posted by 005faa61
Great comment. Gracias Julian :) - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
I would tell these sub-humans this: what goes around comes around. The internet is filled with troublemakers so everyone needs protection. - Sassette, Jul 25, 2017
I have to disagree that all people that come to SD for a quick answer are lazy, if that's what you were referring to. If you meant the spammers, that's another story. :) - rac1, Jul 25, 2017
I read it as being the spammers. - Mardle, Jul 25, 2017
6
votes

I have noticed that these massive spam attacks increased in frequency ever since the admins put out the directive that we could no longer require new prospective members to fill out their profile. All that was required at the time was gender and proficiency levels in English and Spanish. It was also hoped that if their native language was other than English or Spanish, that they would state that as well.

Besides this, I think that every would-be member should also give a short bio, telling us about themselves. I did that the first day I came on board back in November of 2014.

Thank you, Jellonz for your well thought-out and timely comment. I hope you get a zillion votes, and lots of answers.

updated Jul 25, 2017
posted by Daniela2041
Brilliant, gracias Dani. In an ideal world I'd even like to see a short fluency test required for registration, but that may be pushing things too far for some :) - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
Hey barley mate I would fail miserably . Thanks F Y S a great post and you are correct. - ray76, Jul 25, 2017
Lol. That would be fine Ray. A test wouldn't be pass / fail but would grade fluency for the user profile. I don't think it is an addition we are likely to see any time soon :) - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
It didn't just start after what the admins. said. This is something that has been ongoing for awhile. I don't think that had anything to do with it. These people are interested in spamming, not rules. - rac1, Jul 25, 2017
Yes Amber but we mean if it was compulsory before posting on the forum . - ray76, Jul 25, 2017
Yes needing at least a basic profile, language proficiency level, would be a deterrent. When a site is open like facebook it will be abused. - ian-hill, Jul 25, 2017
Facebook (fb) lacks privacy. Years ago, you need a mobile phone number to register on fb. Fb only accepts gmail, and hotmail/yahoo e-mail accounts are rejected & invalid. You have to enter a captcha, if you want to search person's profile on Fb. - NKM1974, Jul 25, 2017
6
votes

I agree with all your suggestions but we have to get the management to agree also.

We always used to ask newbies for their full profile before we accepted them but

some members made objections to this so it was discontinued , I think that this

was a mistake .So let us see if we can get more members agreeing with your proposals .

updated Jul 25, 2017
posted by ray76
Excellent. Thanks Ray. I cannot understand why any potential new user who is serious about learning would object to filling out their profile. It provides basic information that can only assist other users help them. - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
It may be as Bosque suggests that SD is prioritising getting new registrations, regardless of the users' intents, which would be a shame. - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
No, it is because some folks that come to SD, just want an answer to a problem and have no intention of coming back, so, they don't want to go through filling out a profile. The owners have already made it clear this is not an option and I can understand. - rac1, Jul 25, 2017
I'm afraid we need real help here. Much more than insisting a profile be completed. The engineers are working towards this. - rac1, Jul 25, 2017
I agree, Ray. Bosque's point is a good one. I'll leave it up to you to convince managment to listen to Jellonz and Dani. :) - Sassette, Jul 25, 2017
We are looking for real solutions, not just convincing the admins to do something they have already said is not an option. I do believe, however Jellonz idea about the timing between posts..That could really help. - rac1, Jul 25, 2017
Meanwhile we three mods have to spend our spare time banning and deleting even after being told that all is now fixed , I say the time is ripe for trying the solutions offered by jellonz. - ray76, Jul 25, 2017
I agree Ray. Just fixing one Spam problem as they occur and not finding a solution for A L L such attacks is not a good idea. - ian-hill, Jul 25, 2017
6
votes

A few thoughts from a Devil's advocate persepctive.

  1. the fifteen second delay is to prevent posts of any kind from being duplicated, and has saved me several times when the system is slow, and I pressed it again, thinking I must not have hit it right- I have learned to look for the spinning wheel. It can be downright annoying with some of the comments, as those can be fast, and we can delete them ourselves if we screw up.

  2. One of the focuses of the site (per the perspective of the owners) is ease of gaining new members, they want nothing to make it difficult for people to join, that is why campaigns to require they fill out their profile always fail. The owners want joining as easy as possible- no barriers- a name and an email and you're in.

  3. Your thoughts all would make the community better for us, but keep in mind, we are not paying, and the payers want what maximize profits. Like I tell my wife when she complains about the ads on TV- would you rather pay for it yourself? I don't know what counts for their business model- repeat visits by old users, or new users or just total hits, but whatever it is, suggestions will go nowhere if it is not taken into account. It is a business. And I do not know what percentage of the income comes from us?

updated Jul 25, 2017
edited by bosquederoble
posted by bosquederoble
Great observations Bosque. My1. An increase to 15 minutes will still prevent duplication. 2. Accepted. However, how many new members remain? I'd suggest it could be as low as 1 in 10. I don't think those who are serious about learning would be deterred .. - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
... by a slightly more difficult joining process. 3. Like you I have no idea. I guess revenue would come down to ad views and new members who end up being one time users would add little to these. But who knows for sure :) - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
My response was meant by My1 :) Once again, thanks for an alternative viewpoint Bosque. - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
Agreed mate , but getting into the forum and joining SD are twi different things , if they have to give their full profiles only to get into the forum that would still get a member but not a spammer on the forum. - ray76, Jul 25, 2017
My comments of course are not from my perspective, I want everything that Daniela, and Julian, and multiple others have asked for. But I have seen arguments I my whole life, and arguments that try to convince someone from the speakers point of view - bosquederoble, Jul 25, 2017
invariably lose. The only arguments that succeed are those by those who manage to insert themselves in shoes of those they are arguing with, and make the arguments that would be telling to their audience. - bosquederoble, Jul 25, 2017
Exactly, Bosque. The owners are providing this to us for free. Filling out a profile is not a solution...besides, the owners have made it clear they do not want that. So, no point in beating a dead horse. I can understand from their point of view. - rac1, Jul 25, 2017
This explains why I seem to lose so many arguments :) But, to be fair, I have been applying this philosophy to my kids recently and have seen the truth of it. A nice pearl of wisdom Bosque. Cheers mate. - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
Too true Amber. Dead horses are very unresponsive. Still, they couldn't object to extending the enforced delay between posts surely? - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
I mean the SD owners couldn't object, of course. Not the dead horses :) - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
The timing between post sounds like a pretty good idea. I can see that. :) - rac1, Jul 25, 2017
5
votes

Excellent idea Jellonz. The thing is though (as you rightly say) these are spammers, not hackers. Spam is really easy to stop/control. There are a number of ways to do this and hundreds (thousands maybe) of websites of this type on the internet control it.

I can't believe that a site such as this, with all the traffic it receives, has such ineffectual safeguards against spammers.

Edit, just seen the post from SD, hopefully they are now on the case!

updated Jul 25, 2017
edited by billygoat
posted by billygoat
I think the same way. If any individual or company is on the internet without adequate protection they will get attacked to the point where you can't effectively be on the internet. People and companies find ways to protect themselves. - Sassette, Jul 25, 2017
:) I agree amigos. - ian-hill, Jul 25, 2017
Thanks Billy. Agreed, and as you say, it is good Stephanie has seen these posts and hopefully something comes from them. - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
5
votes

Thanks for taking the time to share these great ideas everyone, and to jellonz for starting the conversation! Our team is actually already considering some of these tactics, including the time gap between posts, but it's great to hear some things that we might not have considered.

As we continue to build new features for SD, the reasons why people sign up for free accounts vary greatly. Many people just want an account in order to receive the word of the day emails and save the occasional score from a quiz or a set of flashcards. Most of our registered users will never even post anything in the forum, which is why we don't want to require that all of our account-holders fill out details like fluency level or a bio. Some people don't feel comfortable sharing that information and want to just use other parts of the site, apart from the forum, so we don't want to put them off by demanding extra information like that.

Our goal with the resolution to this spam problem is to find a solution that not only keeps the spammers away but also doesn't deter all the different types of great users we do have from using the site as they desire to improve their Spanish and English.

Please understand that what jellonz said is absolutely true: the people posting these spam posts are just being rude and annoying. These posts can in no way infect your computer, and no hackers have gained access to any of your information through SD. Your safety and enjoyment on SD are always our team's highest priority. We wouldn't get to do the work we love to do if no one used our site.

So while you may not always hear directly from us, please know that we always have the millions of users of this site across the world at the top of our priorities for every decision we make.

Stephanie SD Team

updated Jul 25, 2017
posted by Stephanie_SD
Many thanks Stephanie. It's great to know you are aware of this discussion and ideas contained within it. Thanks for taking these on board, and for providing this platform, which, as I'm sure you can tell, all of us appreciate :) - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
Thank you again Steph I feel much easier now so will sharpen my banning finger for SD . - ray76, Jul 25, 2017
Okay. I'm so glad you're looking at these threads with ideas. I'm sure you know that the spammers are not going anywhere. They will continue to attack until SD has adequate defenses. We are under attack now again. - Sassette, Jul 25, 2017
Stephanie already wrote that the mods shouldn't have to deal with this. Without their help it would be page after page of evil junk which would effectively ruin the site. I hope you make this priority #1. - Sassette, Jul 25, 2017
4
votes

Unbelievable !!

updated Jul 25, 2017
posted by ian-hill
Thanks mate for keep the spammers at bay. You, Ray and Amber do an excellent job! - billygoat, Jul 25, 2017
Thanks again Ian. As I write this someone is spamming at a rate of one every 20 seconds. Could anything be a better promotion for an increased delay between posts? - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
Ray and I are banning the users as we see them but another comes on within minutes - ian-hill, Jul 25, 2017
Which comes back to the ease of new user registration issue. I'm sorry you guys have to deal with this. We can only offer moral support and hope Stephanie and the SD team implement measures to prevent this soon. - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
Yes we can only "hope" that they do. - ian-hill, Jul 25, 2017
Yes we can only "hope" that they do. - ian-hill, Jul 25, 2017
4
votes

Why not use that security feature that many bank websites use. When a user first logs on after registration, a box appears with a word or just random characters that the user must type to gain access. The letter/number combination is not “in line”, the fonts may be different, they may appear to be hand written, etc. The code is random and the user must type it exactly (i.e. “Gu2

updated Jul 25, 2017
posted by DonBigoteDeLaLancha
Yes Don. I'm very surprised SD still doesn't employ some form of Captcha in the registration process just to verify an applicant is human. - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
Jellonz, I believe it would be better if you sent them a feedback with how you feel - rac1, Jul 25, 2017
Good idea, Don. - Sassette, Jul 25, 2017
Ah, "Captcha". I forgot the term. - DonBigoteDeLaLancha, Jul 25, 2017
Yes, for sure Amber. I wanted to get everyone's opinion first, and I intend no disrespect to them. I realise we are just gypsies camping on their land, as it were, and therefore should be grateful for what we have :) - jellonz, Jul 25, 2017
I know you are grateful, Jellonz and are just trying to help by brainstorming ideas. :) - rac1, Jul 25, 2017