Dropping Articles in a Rare Spanish Grammatical Construction

Question

I'm trying to get more information on a rare grammatical structure in Spanish that seems to be used by native speakers but not by bilinguals in the US. Here are two examples:

• Camina montaña arriba.
• Corre montaña abajo.

It seems that bilinguals in the US are normalizing this structure and typically use the following instead:

• Camina la montaña arriba.
• Corre la montaña abajo.

So I have two questions:
First, if you're a native speaker, does it sound more natural with or without the article? What country are you from? How fluent are you in English, and do you live in the US or another English speaking country?

Second, if you do use the first pattern (with the articles dropped), can anyone tell me why the article is dropped? Is there a rule? Does this construction have a name?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Welcome to SpanishDict, Samantha. - rac1, Jun 27, 2017

Answer 1

can you tell me if there's any rule or reason why the article should be dropped in "Caminaron montaña arriba" but not in "Caminaron por la montaña arriba"? Is "arriba" playing a different part of speech between the two sentences?

I will hazard a non-native guess (I will use hill rather than mountain in English for illustration points.):

You cannot use montaña as a direct object for caminar.

• Caminaron montaña arriba. They walked uphill. Here uphill serves as an adverb, montaña arriba is functioning as an adverb, as a direction, not as a noun, not a specific mountain. We don't really say upmountain, but that would be it.

Caminaron por la montaña (hacia) arriba. They walked up the hill. Here por allows you to talk about the specific mountain, and (hacia) arriba is the adverb, la montaña is now a noun capable of being specified. They walked along the mountain upwards.

This is my guess, await other thoughts.

me parece igual de válido, en realidad solo estaba adinvinando - 006595c6, Jun 27, 2017

Heidita, ¿que frase es "Caminaron la montana arriba"?. It has no sense for me. Can you tell me the meaning. - txustaboy, Jun 28, 2017

Thanks bosquederoble! I hadn’t thought about it that way, and I was able to find a couple of grammar books that confirm your guess. - Samantha7072, Jun 28, 2017

txustaboy, I'm hearing bilinguals in the US using this phrase instead of "Caminaron montaña arriba". Thanks for letting me know you wouldn't use it. Where are you from? - Samantha7072, Jun 28, 2017

txustaboy is from Spain, he is a technical writer, so his Spanish is very precise, and of Spain. :) - bosquederoble, Jun 28, 2017

Answer 2

"Bilingual "people in US that I can hear in some Miami TV programs or are sometimes interviewed on CNN in Spanish and that I can watch in my country many times speak understandable and acceptable Spanish but they usually have many mistakes if heard by real native speakers. Their pronunciation lacks something and they have grammar and vocabulary mistakes.

Some people like Patricia Janiot or Ismael Cala or Don Francisco etc. speak excellent Spanish in their regional variations or dialects but many Hispanics born in US who speak Spanish make themselves understood but have lots of mistakes and don't sound like native speakers.

For me it's montaña abajo and montaña arriba. There is no rule as far as I know but neither is there one in English. They are fixed expressions . We also have them in English:

at home and not at the home
at work and not at the work j at school and not at the school.
at first sight and not at the first sight
at noon and not at the noon
at midnight and not at the midnight
etc.

Thanks for the info! And good point with English examples. In Miamians’ defense, language evolves, so the English around them has probably had a big impact on their pronunciation and types of sentences they use. Which country are you from? - Samantha7072, Jun 28, 2017

Uruguay. I know language evolves. Their English is very good and at the moment Spanish is not. This is my opinion in general. - polenta1, Jun 29, 2017

I like Miamians but as a Spanish native speaker I think most of them know basic Spanish. Sorry. - polenta1, Jun 29, 2017

No worries! To be fair most of the bilinguals I've spoken to who are dropping the articles have been English dominant. It might just be that they haven't had enough Spanish exposure to know that type of sentence. Thanks! - Samantha7072, Jun 29, 2017

Answer 3

Hi Samantha, perfect post! Welcome to the forum

Native speaker from Spain.

We do not use the article.

It definitely sounds more natural without the article.

However, I have made a limited search with "a montaña arriba" and most of them are "por la montaña arriba".

The latter sounds perfectly natural again,

Something like: Caminaron por la montaña (hacia) arriba. .

Definitely without the article. - 00fac92a, Jun 27, 2017

Answer 4

Thanks for all of your comments! I’ve been hitting my head against a brick wall trying to figure this out, but your comments helped me to think about this in a different way. In case you’re curious, it looks like when abajo and arriba directly follow a noun, they form and adverbial phrase. I was able to find a Spanish grammar book that translates them like bosquederoble suggested: "río abajo" can be translated into English as "downstream", and English speakers wouldn’t say “the downstream” either. I also found the examples of “ir tierra adentro” and “caminaron campo através” that also seem to work the same way. I'd still love to know which version speakers in your home countries use to see if it's just the US bilinguals who are using the articles or if there are any other regions where "caminaron la montaña arriba" is used.

Thanks for all your help!

You are most welcome, Samantha. :) - rac1, Jun 28, 2017

Nice to hear your comments Samantha - polenta1, Jun 29, 2017

Answer 5

Thanks for all the welcomes!

Always a pleasure, guapa

Heidita2, can you tell me if there's any rule or reason why the article should be dropped in "Caminaron montaña arriba" but not in "Caminaron por la montaña arriba"? Is "arriba" playing a different part of speech between the two sentences?

Well, I would interpret:

Caminaron montaña arriba: están en la parte de abajo, suben a la montaña , van hacia arriba.

Caminaron por la montaña arriba : están ya caminando por la montaña, like trekking, y cogen un camino que va hacia arriba

And Guillermo_O, which country are you from?

Guille is from Argentina Es decir es "un che".... This is what they are called here, they say che every other word, so they are called "los che" over here in Spain.

Thanks for your help!

my pleasure

Oh, I see we were answering the extra question at the same time. - bosquederoble, Jun 27, 2017

Every other word? Really? Vamos che, no seas mentirosa. :) - 00fac92a, Jun 27, 2017

jejeje, veeeeeees!!! - 006595c6, Jun 27, 2017

Thanks for helping with the difference between the two meanings! The first meaning is definitely more in line with what I’m looking for. - Samantha7072, Jun 28, 2017

Answer 6

Thanks for all the welcomes!

Heidita2, can you tell me if there's any rule or reason why the article should be dropped in "Caminaron montaña arriba" but not in "Caminaron por la montaña arriba"? Is "arriba" playing a different part of speech between the two sentences?

And Guillermo_O, which country are you from?

Thanks for your help!

Argentina. It's in my profile. - 00fac92a, Jun 27, 2017

Thanks! Sorry, I'm new to this site and still trying to figure things out. Thanks for the info! - Samantha7072, Jun 28, 2017