Passive Se and Indirect Object Rules

Question

I now know to use IO pronouns before verbs. Does the same rule apply when passive "se" is used? I ask this question because most written examples do not make it clear and are inconsistent.

Also, direct objects can immediately follow a verb. Does that still apply when "se" is used

Answer 1

I'm not sure that I understand your question. Can you give an example sentence?

But, here goes:

María da el libro a José María le da el libro a José. A José le da el libro María María se lo da a José María se lo da.

I don't know any other way to say "Mary gives the book to Joseph". "Le" (IOP) refers to Joseph. "Lo" (DO) refers to "book".

Ah! "The book ïs given to Joseph by Mary." I think that's what you meant. It is passive.

"El libro se le da a José por María." "A José se da el libro por María."

Again, "Le" se reifere to Joseph. "Lo" doesn't appear because the tense is passive. "Se da" is "It is given".

If following the verb, it is "selo" as in "María quiere dárselo a José". "Mary wants to give it (the book) to him (José). i had to add another verb (querer) because "María dárselo a José" makes no sense. "Mary give it to him". "Se" is José and "lo" is the book.

It was Frank's book.

Thanks Don. Just to be clear, the sentences with selo are active, not passive. I believe Se lo before the verb and selo after the verb are impossible in passive sentences, right? - DilKen, May 9, 2017

Hmm. How do I answer this? Shall I put it in a comment or lengthen the thread? In the last part, "If following the verb...." I neglected to say that it was "active". - DonBigoteDeLaLancha, May 9, 2017

Don I think we agree on that is impossible to have a DO with passive :) - DilKen, May 9, 2017

Absolutely! - DonBigoteDeLaLancha, May 9, 2017

Answer 2

Root:

I'll take a crack at this and correct or delete any parts of my answer that turn out to be incorrect after some native speakers weigh in.

First of all, it is definitely possible to use passive se with an indirect object. Here is an example:

El vino se le sirvió en copas de cristal.

The wine was served to him/her in crystal glasses.

In this regard, the indirect object alway comes after the passive se which is what happens with reflexive verbs when there is an indirect object present. Se lo/los/la/las also happens when both an indirect object and direct object pronouns are present in active sentences.

Regarding your question about direct objects, according to Butt and Benjamin:

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True passive se constructions cannot contain a direct object pronoun other than se itself. Therefore, in se los envió, se cannot be the direct object, which is los, so it cannot be passive se. So the sentence must mean one of two things.

Either: (S)he sent them to her/him/you -- active sentence, with se replacing le or les (due to the rule about not having two consecutive pronouns beginning with L - my comment) This is the most likely reading or:

It is an example of se + transitive verb + personal a (but the above sentence doesn't show the personal a because the personal direct object has been turned into a pronoun - my comment) so los refers to human beings and it means "they (the students / the people etc.) were sent to him/her/you/them. (note that although this looks like se passive with a human direct object, according to Butt & Benjamin it is a "special type of construction" which is infrequently used and is not true se passive)

It cannot mean "they were sent" if "they" refers to something non-living like "books": the latter can only be "se enviaron" (or fueron enviados)

End of Butt & Benjamin quotation....

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Now a few of my own comments.

In a nutshell, in a passive se sentence, if there is a indirect object, it follows se and can be either me, te, le, nos or les). There is no possibility of a direct object pronoun other than the se itself)

Keep in mind that in se passive, as in passive with ser, the original direct object of the active sentence becomes the subject of the passive se construction.

The teachers sold the books to the students.

Los maestros vendieron los libros a los estudiantes.

Se vendieron los libros a los estudiantes.

The books were sold to the students

(One is not allowed to put the agent - the teachers with passive se)

Se les vendieron los libros.

The books were sold to them.

There is no direct object because the original direct object (the books) has become the subject.

I hope I got most of this right. If not, let me know and I'll correct or delete.

Could he possibly be referring to the "unexpected occurrence with "se" as in "Se le perdieron las llaves." ?? - Daniela2041, May 9, 2017

Could be...I think of that as passive se with an indirect object that is affected by or involved in the event. Sound about right? Still...not direct object, right? The keys are the subject grammatically hence the plural conjugation of the verb. - DilKen, May 9, 2017

Dani: I didn't realize until now that this is the same person who asked about a place for newbies to discuss things. I'm sure my answer and probably the others went over his head. But that's OK, he'll learn something. :)( - DilKen, May 9, 2017

Answer 3

"Le lo" (IOP and DOP) never appear together except in music. "Le lo lai...." The same with "le la". as in "Layla".