What do subjunctive errors sound like to native Spanish speakers?
Hello folks. This is my first post on this interesting and helpful forum.
QUESTION: When you fail to use the subjunctive in casual conversation when you should, what does it sound like to a native Spanish speaker?
I ask this not because I'm hoping to get by without the subjunctive. I just like to know what stuff sounds like when it's wrong.
Opinions clearly differ and I've shown a few below.
My guess is not using the subjunctive might not sound as bad in
sentence A as in B:
A- INCORRECT: Dudo que habla español. (I doubt he speaks Spanish.)
CORRECT: Dudo que hable español.
B - INCORRECT: Si habría hablado, habrían sabido. (If I would have spoken, they would have known.)
CORRECT: Si hubiera hablado, hubieran sabido.
The erudite Lazarus, former SD sage, says:
If you want to communicate no matter what, and you don't mind
speaking like this as long as they understand you, then you don't
need the subjunctive:
He want picture. Picture be beautiful. Me sell me picture.
Depending on the conversation, Subjunctive appears in 20% -
80% of the sentences, so if you don't learn it, you are going to be
extremely limited in what you can say without making
grammatically incorrect sentences. Extremely limited!!!"
Was Lazarus exaggerating a bit?... maybe to encourage the neophyte to tackle the subjunctive? Do the errors really sound that clumsy? ...Maybe some do and others don't?
A cheerfully informative recent post on a variety of spoken Spanish issues by SD member gringojrf, an American expat in La Paz, Mexico says:
"Don't worry about the subjunctive. Most of the time the trigger will indicate to the native ear when the subjunctive is needed. If they don't hear it they will assume that they did as long as it makes sense. If it doesn't make sense they will ask you to clarify. Also in spoken language the difference in the sound of the subjunctive and the indicative is usually only in the ending and many times those endings are not well enunciated anyway."
Sounds like encouraging feedback from a man in the field. The parts about the listener filling in and unclear endings seem to make sense. We can often make out what's being said despite bad connections, background noise and slurred speech. So it's hard to believe screwing up the last syllable in "hable" could twist an otherwise grammatically sound and clearly enunciated statement into an ungainly knuckle-dragging utterance.
But still, there's the cautionary note by Lazarus which should give one reason to pause.
Another optimistic view comes from Amy Waterman, an instructor at a Spanish learning site, who says:
If you said, "Busco una casa que tiene tres dormitorios,"
absolutely everyone would understand what you meant, and
no one would flinch in horror. "
That's nice to know. But would it still sound like "Me look for house have three bedroom."?...(not that that sounds that bad in the big scheme of things...we only live so long)
Anyway, what do you think? Please feel free to comment whether you're a native Spanish speaker or not. Thanks.
7 Answers
If the mistake sounds awkward or not depends on the associated words in the sentence that subjunctive has been omitted.
INCORRECT: Dudo que habla español. (I doubt he speaks Spanish.)
This sounds funny because "speaking" is doubted but at the same time indicative of "habla" says there is no doubt.
INCORRECT: Si habría hablado, habrían sabido. (If I would have spoken, they would have known.)
This is very noticably wrong. I often hear native English speakers say this and it is just as wrong as in Spanish. It´s painfull to the ear.
CORRECT: Si hubiera hablado, hubieran sabido.
Even though this is accepted, it´s better to say "Si hubiera hablado, habrían sabido".
Most of the time the trigger will indicate to the native ear when the subjunctive is needed. If they don't hear it they will assume that they did as long as it makes sense.
The problem with this "trigger" way of teaching Spanish to non-natives is that there are times when the speaker has the choice of either subjunctive or indicative, so the usage is really a matter of nuance and not an automatic way of speaking, ie: "La casa que tenga 3 recámaras es lo que busco" has the nuance that I would like to find a house with 3 bedrooms. "La casa que tiene 3 recamaras es lo que busco" has a nuance that I know there is a house with 3 bedrooms and I want it. Of course this could also indicate that one specific house that I want is the one with 3 bedrooms.
In the end, it is nuance and not a forced "trigger" that tells you what to say. I agree with Zein "Don't worry, just keep practicing and your brain will get used to using the subjunctive when needed without you even thinking about it!" When you are used to it, you use feeling (nuance) rather than something forced.
To me it seems difficult to try to imagine in English what an error in Spanish usage sounds like. English has all sorts of dialects which use "incorrect" grammar. Whereas I think this occurs much less in Spanish. It is really difficult to find examples of Spanish mistakes in usage. The only one that comes to mind is the tendency for some to add an "s" to the end to the second person singular pretérito: hablastes, vivistes, etc.
I could go on and on about misuse of English verbs: he had went, I seen him, we had tooken. So maybe to the Spanish speaker (if indeed they hear the incorrect usage) it just sounds a little odd since they already know you're not a native speaker when you start talking.
I like Zein's last sentence.
Hi Jubilado, I was thinking that too, hard to do a comparison re errors between the two languages. Maybe in part because the subjunctive is a big deal in Spanish and not so much in English.
Funny you mention that re lower rate of native Spanish grammar mistakes. I was trying to find examples of mistakes Spanish speakers make in Spanish and didn't come up with much either...lots the other way around though...thanks
I imagine it sounds the same way in English:
Correct: I wish I had a house Incorrect: I wish I have a house
Correct: If I were you.... Incorrect: If I was you... (but I guess native speakers make this mistake often)
Don't worry, just keep practicing and your brain will get used to using the subjunctive when needed without you even thinking about it!
If I hear an angloparlante make a mistake in the use of the subjunctive, it doesn't bother me at all. If the mistake causes a problem in my understanding of what he/she is saying, then I might ask about it. Non-natives are not really supposed to be masters of the language. If they get the pronunciation right, to me that's the main thing. Second is vocabulary. Some people really mess up in this area.
Hi Julian- thanks for the response...so you're saying not so bad in some cases but terrible in others...that's helpful to know...I guess among the least offensive would be something like Zein's "I wish I have a house..."...that wouldn't bother me much on hearing it...much better than the "Me go find Tarzan" stuff...still, I'd guess you'd have to go beyond that to approximate the "painful" sound the native Spanish speaker hears at times...
Thanks Daniela - interesting , but maybe not surprising, that even among those like yourself who are fluent in both languages there seem to be notable differences in how such errors are viewed...or heard...
well, I just added to my vocab...Soy un angloparlante...
