Passive voice - identifying the agent when using the 'se' form

Question

I love the passive voice in English (probably using it more often than is wise) so am pleased to see it used so often in Spanish in the books I am reading and am dying to overuse it myself. I have read the page on forming the passive where it says, in part;

The formula ser + past participle (+ por + agente) or se + 3rd person is used to create the passive voice.

It then goes on to provide some examples. My question is in two parts:

1) Can the agent be identified when using the latter formula, se + 3rd person (+ por + agente), or is it only used when the agent is not identified? Se escribó el libro en español por mi profesor. Se establecieron las colonias hace 200 años por los ingleses.

2) It seems that I have only seen the latter form used with the word order as verb first then the subject. Is this mandatory, usual, or totally elective? Se establecieron las colonias hace 200 años. Las colonias se establecieron hace 200 años.

Answer 1

Hi, I'm not a native speaker, but I will share my knowledge with you to the best of my ability.

1. When using the passive se, the doer of the action is never identified. When the person or thing performing the action is unknown, or you don't want it to be known, you use the passive se. You use ser+past participle+por+agent when you do want to acknowledge the person doing the action.

El libro fue escrito por mi profesor/por alguien/por mi madre/etc.

Vs.

Se escribió el libro en 1920. (Nothing is known about who wrote it; it could have been a monkey for all we know).

1. Generally when using the passive se, the word order is se+third person indicative or past+the thing that is or was done.

Well, that's my two cents from what I learned in college.

thank you - ErikainAndalusia, Mar 17, 2016

Nice answer. - annierats, Mar 17, 2016

This is a really helpful answer for me to differentiate between the use of what I call the Passive Voice (ser + past participle) vs the use of what I call the Passive Se. Really helpful. - DesWalker, Mar 18, 2016

Answer 2

I think the establecerse is just a reflexive ' se'.

Overall the Spanish uses the passive much less than in Engsish and few of all the trillions of 'se' that occur are passive. But some are. You're abrave woman if you want to use it more than necessary!

Sorry, this is not very helpful to you, I'm afraid.

se nota que el se no se te hace simpático. lol;) - 000a35ff, Mar 17, 2016

it's interesting that you say that it is not used much in Spanish. I have read that too in some places, but other sources say it is used more than in English. Including Spanish Dict! http://www.spanishdict.com Maybe it depends which English one uses? - ErikainAndalusia, Mar 18, 2016

My observation is that it is used a lot though not, as in English, as much in conversation as in authoritative documentation, tourism brochure, government regulations and literature. - ErikainAndalusia, Mar 18, 2016

The impression I get (as a beginner) is that the Passive Voice (= ser + past participle) is not used much in Spanish precisely because there is an alternative construction to achieve the same result (namely the Passive Se). Correct or not ? - DesWalker, Mar 18, 2016

I suspect (but have no proof and am highly likely to be wrong) that the aggregate usage of the Passive Voice + Passive Se would actually be greater in Spanish than the use of the Passive Voice ("to be" + past participle) in English. That is my impression. - DesWalker, Mar 18, 2016

I agree totally with your observation DesWalker - ErikainAndalusia, Mar 29, 2016

Answer 3

The "other" passive is when you say "The book was written by José García"

El libro fue escrito por José García,

Las Américas fueron descubiertas por Cristóbal Colón, en 1492.

(The Americas were discovered by Christopher Colombus in 1492)

In this case you don't use "se" but you do mention the agent.

Here's a chart with a few more different kinds of passive.

Thanks Dani. - 00cc0117, Mar 18, 2016

I would have translated 2. literally as "They are waiting for you in the the street" therefore active - ErikainAndalusia, Mar 21, 2016

And 3. literally as "They will inform us of the news tomorrow", again Active not Passive in English. Am I missing something? - ErikainAndalusia, Mar 21, 2016

Answer 4

Four questions regarding the Passive Se from my Spanish text book. Any help is much appreciated .....

1) Se prohibe fumar

How do I know whether to read this as "one is forbidden to smoke" or "to smoke is forbidden" ? Clearly they mean the same thing but when I'm reading Spanish is there a way of telling whether to translate as though the subject has been generalised to "one" (Impersonal Se) or has been removed altogether (Passive Se) ?

2) El museo se cierra a las seis.

My book says this should be interpreted to mean "the museum is closed at six" but I don't understand this construction at all. Why is it necessary to say "the museum closes itself at six" rather than simply "El museo cierra a las seis" ?

3) The example above seems to contradict an earlier very helpful post in this thread by "cmusab" (I think) indicating that the correct construction should be "Se cierra el museo a las seis". Are both okay or is one better than the other ?

4) If I use Google Translate "English to Spanish" and I enter "the museum closes at six" then it throws out "El museo cierra a las seis". Phew, at least I got that right :o) But if I just enter "the museum closes" it throws out "se cierra el museo". ??? So just the addition of "at six" not only moves the "el museo" bit to the front but also introduces the notion of reflexivity via "se" ..... ("itself, it closes the museum"). It just seems so weird to me.

Any help is very much appreciated.

can you make this a seperate question on your own thread so I can answer it? I don't have enough room in this box to answer it adequately :) - cmusba, Mar 19, 2016