Ser / Estar with Past Participle.

Question

Past participle use in Spanish mostly seems to work the same as in English with the perfect tenses, the adjectival and the passive. I just have one question regarding the last two of these.

In English we can use the same sentence for both adjectival and passive:

The door is closed - The [state of the] door is closed

The door is closed - The door is closed [by him/her/it]

Is the same true in Spanish, or as I suspect, does the use of estar / ser determine which is which:

La puerta está cerrada - The [state of the] door is closed

La puerta es cerrada - The door is closed [by him/her/it]

Jellonz, you have not completed any lessons yet , don't you think that it is time that you started? - ray76, Dec 8, 2015

This has been asked a million times. Please do as the guidelines say and do a search. We have many available resources at your disposal; all free. - rac1, Dec 8, 2015

Hi Ray, I use Spanishdict's Q+A to get answers from a great bunch of helpful Spanish speakers. Are taking lessons a requirement for this? If so, please advise me. - jellonz, Dec 8, 2015

Hi Rac1. I haven't seen this specific Ser / Estar *with* Past Participle question answered anywhere on SpanishDict - in the Q+A or in the article section. If you could provide a link to just one of those million answers I'd be grateful. - jellonz, Dec 8, 2015

http://www.spanishdict.com/conjugate/ser - rac1, Dec 8, 2015

A vote from me for being a happy recipient of my quirky sense of humour. - ray76, Dec 9, 2015

Answer 1

I really liked this question, and actually was hoping that someone would answer it. I have not seen this addressed quite like this. As I have thought about it since seeing your question I have really come to like this way of thinking of things.

I can find this that seems to agree:

https://community.dur.ac.uk/m.p.thompson/ser-estar.htm

SUBJECT + estar + PAST PARTICIPLE

Not passive; refers to the result of the action having been carried out (so like estar + ADJECTIVE above)

u El poema está escrito en catalán

u Estaba [se encontraba] herido y sangraba

u Pepe está [anda] enamorado de la monja

u Ella está muerta

SUBJECT + ser + PAST PARTICIPLE

The true passive construction: refers to the action being carried out

u El poema fue escrito por García Lorca [i.e., GL escribió el poema]

u Fueron [quedaron] heridos en un accidente

u Seré [me veré] obligado a firmar [i.e., alguien me obligará a firmar]

u Ella es bien conocida en su propio país

(NB some past participles can be used as ordinary adjectives: es aburrido = it's boring)

But do note the last bit, so not a complete distinction. But note herido in both examples- one refers to the action of being injured, the other the state of being injured (ie having an injury).

Gracias Bosque. I seemed to have copped a bit of flak from the mods for including the dreaded Ser/Estar in my question :( I'm glad someone read past the title and realised there was more to it. Thanks for the answer and that last point is a good one. - jellonz, Dec 8, 2015

@bosque, this kind of "state" vs. "actions" focus is pretty common in language where the passive isn't formed with the verb "to be" (so most Indo-Aryan language) - HackerKing, Dec 8, 2015

Basically any language where the auxiliary of the passive isn't the same as the copula used for participles - HackerKing, Dec 8, 2015

Anyway, I think this whole discussion improved my method of thinking about this, so thank you Jellonz for asking, and thank you HackerKing for your input as well. :) - bosquederoble, Dec 8, 2015

Answer 2

I think you have it.

This use of "ser" vs. "estar" is hard to convey in English, but basically "ser" focuses on the action (and hence is the auxiliary for the passive voice) and "estar" on the state.

"La puerta está cerrada" = "The door is closed (and was closed before I got here)"

"La puerta es cerrada" = "The door is being closed"

So If you wanted to say "The door is closed", it would depend heavily on context.

"Imagine a room with an open door. Then, the door is closed" would be translated as "Imagínate un cuarto con puerta abierta. Luego, la puerta es cerrada." However, it's more natural in speech to replace "es cerrada" with "se cierra".

But "Imagine coming across a room and the door is closed" would translate as "Imagínate encontrar un cuarto y la puerta está cerrada"

Gracias Hacker. I think I complicated things in my mind by thinking of ser+participle as solely an habitual action in the present tense. Your examples simplify things. - jellonz, Dec 8, 2015

It is a very nice example. :) - bosquederoble, Dec 8, 2015