Contrary-to-fact statement without "if"

Question

Most discussion of contrary-to-fact statements needing the subjunctive involve the use of an "if" phrase, such as "If I had time, I would go to the movies." (Si yo tuviera tiempo, iría al cine.), and most statements with "I believe" do not use the subjunctive, such as "I believe they are coming." (Creo que vienen.) But what about contrary-to-fact statements with "believe"? The dog believes he is a man. El perro cree que es un hombre? El perro cree que sea un hombre.

Welcome to the forum , we want to help you so fill out your profile If you have a problem PM a mod Bienvenido al foro. Queremos ayudarle, entonces hay que llenar su perfil. Si hay un problema, envíe un mensaje personal (PM) - ray76, May 29, 2015

Good question. - rac1, May 29, 2015

It is :) - ian-hill, May 29, 2015

Nice question. - annierats, May 29, 2015

Thank you for filling out your profile , that is worth a vote from me great questions make you do . - ray76, May 29, 2015

Answer 1

Even simpler: The earth is flat. El mundo es plano. Clearly contrary to fact. Subjunctive or no?

:) - annierats, May 30, 2015

This site http://www.cuadernoscervantes.com/ele_57_subjuntivo2.htm discusses sentences which change meaning depending on whether the indicative or subjunctive is used. Use often depends on the knowledge and belief of the speaker. - garypopkin, May 31, 2015

Answer 2

El perro se cree hombre. The dog believes itself to be a man.

I think, anyway. Creer in a positive sentence is followed by the indicative.

Annie, you must have meant "El perro se cree ser hombre." Since it is the same subject who does the "believing" as does the "being" we can avoid the issue by using the infinitive. - garypopkin, May 29, 2015

True garypopin, no change of subject, infinitive works fine. - annierats, May 30, 2015

However, I have seen ' El hombre se cree diós', in which case the same goes for the dog, or not? - annierats, May 30, 2015

'El hombre se cree diós' perhaps means the man believes god, or belives in god, not that he belives himself to be god. - garypopkin, May 31, 2015

Answer 3

Welcome to the forum, Gary. Please take a moment to add your proficiency in Spanish and your native language to your profile.

Have a look at this thread

:) - ian-hill, May 29, 2015