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How weird the non-subjunctive... ?

How weird the non-subjunctive... ?

4
votes

If a non-native speaker of Spanish avoids the subjunctive, whether through laziness, or through ignorance, shall he nonetheless still make himself understood ?

Si un hablante de español, quién no es nativo, evita el subjunctivo, sea gracias a la pereza o la ignorancia, sin embargo va a hacer entenderse a nativos ?

Is there any sign in Spanish of the subjunctive becoming less important ?

1683 views
updated Feb 1, 2015
edited by Faldaesque
posted by Faldaesque
I doubt it very much amigo. - ian-hill, Jan 31, 2015

6 Answers

6
votes

I have been told by numerous native Spanish speakers that when a foreigner is talking in Spanish (unless they are quite advanced or fluent) they kind of expect that the person will not always get the subjunctive right, so allow for this when they are listening. Although incorrect use of the subjuncitve sounds weird to them they understand us through context.

Re will the subjunctive become less important.....well again, from what I gather chatting to native speakers, I doubt this very much. It's a bit like us with phrasal verbs; to us they are perfectly normal and an integral part of our language. However, to a Spanish person learning English they are often weird to understand and use correctly. Mind you, with the increase in Spanglish - particularly in the Americas - who knows how languages will evolve in years to come!

updated Feb 1, 2015
edited by billygoat
posted by billygoat
What do you mean by "evolve"???! ]:D - chileno, Jan 31, 2015
:) - ian-hill, Jan 31, 2015
Survival of the most frequently-used in the jungle of language.. Every word, rule and sound for themselves!! - Suzanne_Romijnders, Jan 31, 2015
Exactly Suzanne! I agree. - billygoat, Jan 31, 2015
In reality English phrasal verbs do change, sometimes fairly quickly. Consider that until recently things were based ON things not OFF OF things. Nowadays I see "based off of" far more frequently than "based on." It bugs me, but there it is. - AnnRon, Jan 31, 2015
It bugs you because they are corruptions and not real language. - ian-hill, Feb 1, 2015
5
votes

Claro que se te entendería, por deducción o por contexto. Sin embargo, ¿que el subjuntivo se vuelva menos importante? mmmm tengo mis dudas, el subjuntivo nos ayuda a dar matices muy importantes a nuestra lengua. Good Luck. grin

updated Feb 1, 2015
posted by leumas11
:) - ian-hill, Jan 31, 2015
4
votes

My guess is that Spanish without the sunjunctive would be like English without modals.

In other words a "dog's dinner". smile

Not that I have much of a clue about how or when to use the Spanish subjunctive.

Even if I know when to use it most of the time I have to get out my "500 Spanish Verbs" book and look up the correct subjunctive verb spelling.

That is not so convenient when one is eating pasta and trying to have a chat over a glass of wine.

updated Jan 31, 2015
edited by ian-hill
posted by ian-hill
lol forget the pasta mate.....wine in one hand, spanish verb book in the other = sorted ;-) - billygoat, Jan 31, 2015
Hahaha X)) - Suzanne_Romijnders, Jan 31, 2015
Don't you just 'AR' the 'ER'/'IRs', 'ER'/'IR' the 'ARs' (sounds a bit rude), or stick a GA onto it... ;-) - Faldaesque, Jan 31, 2015
2
votes

Faldo - Modals they are only "weird" because they are NOT verbs.

That is the problem. They cannot be conjugated - they never change form.

And they do exist in other languages.

They "modify" verbs and make almost every English verb have 11 extra meanings. Which makes them extremely powerful.

Do some research or ask me to tell you what they are.

Then you will understand why they are an integral part of the English language as is the subjunctive in Spanish. Which was my original statement.

updated Feb 1, 2015
edited by ian-hill
posted by ian-hill
I'm not disputing you over their utility, but their inflexibility is nonetheless weird when compared with their cognates in other European languages... - Faldaesque, Feb 1, 2015
& as for their 'ability' to render up to 11 different meanings, well, if this makes them ambiguous, then in my submission they are dubious tools for expressing meaning... - Faldaesque, Feb 1, 2015
What other language used modals such as English ? - Faldaesque, Feb 1, 2015
Only ambiguous if you also think the Spanish subjunctive results in ambiguity too. - ian-hill, Feb 1, 2015
Scandinavian languages. - ian-hill, Feb 1, 2015
There are NO cognates in most other languages. - ian-hill, Feb 1, 2015
The words can - could / will - would / may - might / shall should and must etc do not exist in most languages. - ian-hill, Feb 1, 2015
wollen / sollen / konnen / mussen / querer / ir / poder / deber / voulor / aller / pouvoir / devoir... all conjugate... - Faldaesque, Feb 1, 2015
What is your point amigo? The Spanish ones are all "normal" verbs and can therefore be conjugated. Modals can't be. - ian-hill, Feb 1, 2015
1
vote

English modals:

  • Can... Infinitive form = to be able (to)
  • May... Infinitive form = to be able (to) / to be allowed (to) / to be considering the possibility (of)
  • Might... Infinitive form = as above for 'may', more or less (the distinction is unclear & has provoked contention in legal / political documents; sometimes expresses conditionality, like 'would' (below))
  • Must... Infinitive form = to have (to)
  • Will... Infinitive form = to be going (to) / to intend (to)
  • Shall... Infinitive form = as above for 'will' (but expresses more certainty, less/no control on the part of the subject)
  • Would... Infinitive form = as above for 'will' (but expresses conditionality) / also used as past tense of 'will'

These are our English 'modals', yet they are incomplete and imperfect verbs because they have no infinitive forms unlike their equivalents in other Indo-European languages:

  • Can... Spanish equivalent = Poder... Full functionality
  • May... Spanish equivalent = Poder... Full functionality
  • Might... Spanish equivalent = Expressed as imperfect subjunctive, e.g. quisiera
  • Must... Spanish equivalent = Deber... Full functionality
  • Will... Spanish equivalent = Querer / Ir (a)... Full functionality
  • Shall... Spanish equivalent = Querer / Ir (a)... Full functionality
  • Would... Spanish equivalent = No real equivalent... Conditional tense applies
updated Feb 1, 2015
posted by Faldaesque
Also 'should', which relates to 'shall' as 'would' does to 'will'... - Faldaesque, Jan 31, 2015
They are NOT verbs at all - they function more like adverbs than anything else - ian-hill, Feb 1, 2015
They "modify" verbs and make almost every English verb have 11 extra meanings. - ian-hill, Feb 1, 2015
Aye, that's one way of looking at it. They act almost like the endings of Spanish verb conjugations.... - Faldaesque, Feb 1, 2015
But my point is that they did use to be fully functioning verbs... - Faldaesque, Feb 1, 2015
When were they ever fully functioning verbs? They are not now. - ian-hill, Feb 1, 2015
0
votes

I'm not sure I follow Ian's comparison with English modals. To my mind, English modals are simply incomplete verbs, & some regional dialects do use them more completely, e.g. I myself might sometimes say, 'I used to could recite the Greek alphabet'... I know it's not 'correct' English, but it's a more complete version of 'to can'. The English modals have their cognates in other Germanic languages (German, Dutch, Afrikaans etc) where they act more like regular verbs. Kids learning English often regularise our weird modals. It sounds weird yet still makes perfect sense, because of course they're speaking logically: 'I want to can do it'...

English has the subjunctive, although nowadays it's largely optional, & I'm not sure that it really adds anything significant in English other than sounding a bit posh. French uses the subjunctive much more than English & occasionally it uses it where Spanish doesn't, yet probably altogether it uses it less than Spanish, & one can manage quite fluently in French without using at all (although you do need to be able to recognise it when it occurs). I've spent some time in Northern Africa, where French is spoken widely, yet the subjunctive appears less in use than in European France.

I gather it exists in English's cousin Germanic languages too (perhaps with the exception of ultra-simplistic Afrikaans), but of these I know very little, so I have no idea how it's faring in these languages.

Over the course of the last few hundred years English has become a much simpler language grammatically (although in other respects it has become more challenging to learn, e.g. its huge vocabulary & wide diversity of regional variation), and I believe linguists predict it will become ever simpler (grammatically) in future centuries (some people believe the second person singular regular conjugation will eventually drop its S, and a PhD of my acquaintance predicts that the past perfect & preterite will merge).

I wonder why English should continue to undergo simplification and Spanish not...

updated Feb 1, 2015
posted by Faldaesque
"simple" incomplete verbs ??? Really? Without Modals no one can be fluent in English and your "I used to could ..." is gobble-de gook. "I used to be able to" is correct English. - ian-hill, Jan 31, 2015
All I am saying is that often the Spanish subjunctive is expressed using Modals in English and neither can be removed from either language without greatly diminishing both. - ian-hill, Jan 31, 2015
Simpler? In fact since Shakespeare's time English has become more complicated. - ian-hill, Jan 31, 2015
The rules for Modal usage are the only English garmmar rules that are inviolate that I know - For that reason your "I used to could" is simply incorrect and sounds wrong to most ears.. - ian-hill, Jan 31, 2015
Your problem is that both "used to" and "could" are both modals and consequtive Modals are never used. And "to can" is incorrect because "can" is a Modal and cannot be an infinitive verb. - ian-hill, Jan 31, 2015
Yes, I agree, but 'used to could' is used where I live. 'Can' is the English cognate of the German 'können', & 'können' can be used like a normal verb.... - Faldaesque, Jan 31, 2015
English is the only language I know that has these weird verbs, like 'can', 'must', 'shall' etc that have no real infinitive form... - Faldaesque, Jan 31, 2015
My Anglo Saxon is rudimentary, but I understand that our modern modals came from more complete regular verbs. I'm not sure when or why they lost their complete functionality... - Faldaesque, Jan 31, 2015
Incidentally, I believe 'to can' is considered grammatically correct is certain varieties of pidgin English, which should be given their place in the world's rich linguistic diversity... ;-) - Faldaesque, Jan 31, 2015
Faldo they are only "weird" because they are not verbs. Do some research or ask me to tell you what they are. - ian-hill, Feb 1, 2015