How Spanish is viewed in the Spanish speaking world
I've tried looking through the previous posts and couldn't find my specific question, so I'm sorry if this has been answered. I'm also sorry for the wordiness. ![]()
My question essentially deals with the issue of the relationship between the dialects of Spanish and if this view is, as some have suggested, congruent with the relationship between the dialects of English.
It seems that, basically, in the English speaking world, even though there are many dialects, there are (more or less) two standard dialects which dominate education (for native speakers) in most of the English speaking countries: British and American. For example, even though an Australian speaks a specific set of English dialects which differ significantly from American or British Standard, an Australian student is taught the British Standard in Australian schools. Incidentally, it seems that Canada incorporates both standards in its educational system. Naturally, to some extent, this has divided the world into two 'camps'. The British Standard camp says that, since the language developed in the British Isles. That is the 'real' English and should be the universally taught dialect. The American Standard says that language and culture are always changing, borrowing, influencing and being influenced. Why would one culture, no matter how related, allow the way it speaks and educated to be dictated by another culture. Mostly it seems to be more or less good-natured. (until MS Word auto-correct favors one dialect over the other ![]()
My questions is whether or not Spanish is viewed similarly. Basically, which dialect of Spanish is taught to native Spanish speaking children in their countries? Is there a world wide standard or a hybrid that is taught? Does each country teach its own national dialect? Does everyone learn Castellano (i.e. Madrid Spanish) in reading and writing, but continues speaking their own dialect in the community? Or something else entirely?
I know that issues of language and culture can bring out strong opinions in people. I'm not trying to advocate for any view. I'm just curious about different perception.
Thank you, everyone, for the input.
9 Answers
We're taught Spanish, for us castellano is just another name for the language which is more common in certain parts like Spain and Argentina, and there is no international standard for teaching purposes. From what I've seen so far, only people with criollo mentality could ever think that Spain's Spanish is better because "it's the original one", and among Latin Americans who are familiar with Spain it's common for them to ape Spain's accent while using vulgar langauge, because they know the Spanish are more prone to using lewd language.
The thing is there can't be a standard; in Colombia we have a least 5 different ways to speak Spanish, and the people from the Caribbean coast, for an example, in general don't like the local 'prestige' dialect which is the one from Bogotá, the capital, and mock it very often, which is also true other way around. Some schools still teach "vosotros" though, but in no way does that mean there's a standard, it's actually more a a tradition that's being left behind as time passes.
Certainly when choosing Spanish-language resources in Britain, very often a choice exists between two options: (1) European Spanish & (2) Latin American Spanish. The discs that I initially used had both a European Speaker & a Latin American in order to give the learner flavours of both varieties, and key differences were pointed out.
Incidentally, if you buy a novel in a bookshop in France that has been translated from American English, it says on the back of it 'traduit de l'americain'. I don't know if other non-English languages recognise American English this way.
A lot of very good ideas are being bounced around here. I have another add-in to the conversation that doesn't have as much to do with Spanish per se as much as it has to do with how language and culture are hard (if not impossible) to separate.
I used to live in Egypt where (of course) Arabic is spoken (a language which has had a lot of influence of Spanish evolution). Unlike Spanish, as you move through Arabic speaking countries, the local dialects become further and further removed to the point that, in many cases, they are so unintelligible that they are not even dialects anymore, but completely different languages. However, in schools and universities, students are not taught their dialect (reading and writing), but MSA (Modern Standard Arabic). No one is taught how to read and write the language that they actually speak and the dialects are never written! The issue becomes even more nuanced in that no one speaks MSA! While it is closest to the Arabic spoken in Saudi Arabia, it only exists as a written language. Since I assume that most of the people in this forum are English speakers who are learning Spanish (I didn't realize that during my original post), let me illustrate this in an English context. The English equivalent of Arabic would be if everyone in the English speaking world spoke their own dialect (as they do now), but all of the books, newspapers, magazines, and street signs were written in Old or Middle English (think Beowulf or Chaucer); basically a language that hasn't been spoken since the Middle Ages. Everyone who is considered literate would be so because they could read and write in a foreign language and not the one that they actually use in every day life. The Nobel Laureate, Naguib Mafouz, was considered so innovative because he wrote in the Egyptian dialect (although only for the speaking parts of his books). Also, as a foreigner, there are language classes for the dialects (because why would a foreign come to an Arabic speaking country and learn a language that s/he couldn't communicate in?), but Arabic teachers often consider these classes to be a travesty. They believe that no one should learn the dialects. Everyone should only learn MSA if they want to learn Arabic.
Just a little 'language nerd' story. However, here is something that might relate more to Spanish learning. Spanish's 'cousin', Portuguese has reached the status of English in that Portugal recognizes that there are (at least) two official versions (or so I've been told) of Portuguese and each are considered valid and equal: "Portuguese" Portuguese and "Brazilian" Portuguese (no clue about the Portuguese spoken in Mozambique and Angola). Therefore, it's completely standard (as in American English) to be educated as a native speaker, in one's own dialect of Portuguese (as long as it's one of the two standard dialects
- unlike in English (where previously stated) an Australian is educated in the British dialect and not their own.
In Spain some dialects are recognised at regional level as official languages, e.g. Galician & Catalan (although Catalan is perhaps more obviously deserving of classification as a separate language). Perhaps if Latin America were one country as opposed to a range of distinct nation states, then we would see the various varieties of Spanish recognised thus.
I've visited many places in Catalunya & have to say Spanish does seem to be the 'lingua franca', perhaps with a few Catalan words thrown in. When one hears it spoken fluently it does sound quite different (although with a reasonable amount of Spanish, it's possible to get the gist of written Catalan), but I don't believe many folk speak Catalan as their primary means of communication (except perhaps at home), & can readily switch to Castilian if need be.
Thus it may be comparable with modern Scots, where most folk use mostly English with occasional old Scots words thrown in for a bit of spice.
Really what it is taught is Castellano (Castilian). That's the name of the language. It is spoken in Spain and every other country where "Spanish" is spoken.
Castellano is what's taught in schools all over the Spanish world.
Unfortunately, since English being sought all over the world as "the language of the world" much emphasis has been given to the word Spanish (español) instead of Castilian (castellano) that even today many Spanish speaking countries will say they are imparted "clases de español" (Spanish classes) at school. :/
Edit:
diagonx, the constitution of Spain states that the official language of Spain id Castilia, and there three co-official languages. That last part is the one that you refer that it is a political thing in Spain.
But the name of the language is Castellano and not español. The latter is a demonym.
It is idiotic to thing that I speak Chilean and Spanish. See?
Are this a dialect? Slang if you want a Chilean or Spaniard way of saying certain things like in American "slang"
In my experience I have found that although there are differences in the way people pronounce the words, and the usual debate between the "leístas" and the "loístas", the use of "vosotros", and el "ceceo", I have found that there is a "standard" Spanish that is taught in universities, and used by well-educated people all over the Spanish-speaking world.
The standards apply to both grammar and vocabulary, although are significant differences in vocabulary from country to country. One familiar example is the word "computer" which in most places in L.A. is "computadora" however in Spain it gets "transgendered" into "ordenador."
However, wherever I have gone, I have found well- educated Spanish speakers using the same style of grammar even where there were differences in pronunciation and vocabulary.
The slang used, however, and the clichés do vary significantly. The country which has the most different Spanish, however is Argentina. Their accent, their, vocabulary, the rhythm and melody of the language remind me a lot of Italian.
Disclaimer: I'm from the US, but this is what I got after listening to my Spanish teacher (moved here from Madrid) and Mexican friends (moved here from Mexico City). I have no way to tell how accurate this is:
In Spain, the students are taught the Spanish spoken near Madrid as the educational standard. Obviously students in Andalusia (where /s/ and /?/ have merged into /s/) and the part of Spain whose name escapes me (the area where /s/ and /?/ are merged into /?/) will have teachers who pronounce these sounds regionally, it is often viewed as "correct" to distinguish them (implicitly because the Madrid area distinguishes them).
In Mexico, the students are taught a Mexico City-based standard (similar to how China teaches students a Beijing-based version of Mandarin). In Mexico, how closely you speak to the Central-Mexican dialect is often an indicator of social class, with most educated people speaking like they were from Central Mexico.
I don't doubt what Diagonx says about the various dialects that may exist in one single particular Latin American country. In Scotland, which is only one of the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom, there are probably over a dozen distinct accents/dialects. Even within the City of Glasgow there are several different accents. However, none of these is taught as a standard form, whereas British English is.
@chileno, la cosa es que el idioma español tiene dos nombres, y no es estúpido porque Chile es Chile y España es España, no es el mismo contexto.
El nombre más común del idioma español en Colombia es español.
Aparte del uso común de ese nombre en Colombia y otros países hispanohablantes, la RAE dice (#3):
Artículo enmendado.
Avance de la vigésima tercera edición
español, la.
(Del prov. espaignol, y este del lat. mediev. Hispani?lus, de Hispania, España).
adj. Natural de España. U. t. c. s.
adj. Perteneciente o relativo a este país de Europa.
m. Lengua común de España y de muchas naciones de América, hablada también como propia en otras partes del mundo.
a la ~.
- loc. adv. Al uso de España.