verbs can obey "no-faul" construction

Question

Some reflexive verb forms, such as "perderse" (to get lost), "olvidarse" (to be forgotten) and so on can be used with another (indirect object) unstressed pronoun referring to a person. Then, the person becomes the subject in the translation into English, but in this Spanish construction, the responsibility for the loss is reduced by not making the person the subject of the sentence. "I lost the book" can be "Perdí el libro" , but "El libro se me perdió" or "Se me perdió el libro" (literally: "The book got lost on me")

How can i find out (from dictionary or verb concept) that a verb might be used in "no-faul" construction?

In mostly references we have just two examples: perderse and olvidarse.

how can i find out other verbs can obey from this rule like "decir", "golpear" and ...?

Answer 1

One has to use his own commonsense in this regard, I don't think that there is a comprehensive list available for all the verbs compiled together at one place that can be used in this manner..

You just have to get the understanding of this idea and then use it subconsciously with time.. The general rule is that any verb that denotes some kind of loss can used in this way .. but with due discretion and due regard to the context .. For example .. the verb romper .. se me ha roto el jarron .. My vase broke,,, .. The verb caer .... Se me ha caido al suelo and so on ...

Answer 2

@Joydeep_Sing

In your view, yes, this is the loss.

The first meaning of "loss" in Cambridge dictionary:

the fact that you no longer have something or have less of something

we can say after breaking vase, we have no longer the original one, we will have just a broken vase.

And how about another verb like: ("golpear" = to hit), Is there a loss after hitting? can i use this verb in no-fault construction. like: "se me golpeó"

Ummmmm .. it depends on the context ... depends on how the verb is used and weather it denotes a true loss in your sentence or not .. for example in a simple sentence like .. "me golpea mi esposa todos los dias" I am deliberately putting the blame on wife - Joydeep_Singh, Nov 19, 2014

and accusing her of beating me every day. so as she deliberately beats me (there is no place for a no-fault construction in this kind of sentence).. - Joydeep_Singh, Nov 19, 2014

and moreover, golpear more often than not, is used as transitive verb where the subject hits the object (so the action is in a usual context a deliberate one) so the scope of that kind of construction is relatively limited. - Joydeep_Singh, Nov 19, 2014

Answer 3

I think what you're referring to could be related to the voz media (entre activa & pasiva) such as in "El barco se hundió." 'se' is added, the original verb doesnt have to have already been reflexive, but it indeed usually takes an object that is given more importance in the process, while the original subject's prominence is drained, often to the point of being omitted, like in my example. I hope this helps you advance your search!

Answer 4

"perderse" and "olvidarse" have the loss concept. they point to the loss of a physical thing. But I can not imagine that "romper" has this concept.

If something is broken is that not a financial loss ?? unless the thing in question came for free ... if you accidentally break your friends watch, that rolex might have costed him a good 100 dollars .. that is his loss - Joydeep_Singh, Nov 18, 2014

Answer 5

@SuzyStudiesSpanish

Has "voz media" and its rules are mentioned in Spanish grammar books? In English books about Spanish grammar, I have just seen "no-fault se" or "accidental se" ore like this.

Could give me the name of a grammar book that it's mentioned "voz media"?

I have never heard any such thing as "voz media", Suzy could you kindly explain what it means :) - Joydeep_Singh, Nov 19, 2014

It's briefly mentioned in the book 'Introducción a la Lingüística Hispánica' (by José Ignacio Hualde, Antxon Olarrea, Anna María Escobar & Catherine E. Travis) (segunda edición) It's pretty giant book by the Cambridge University Press. - Suzanne_Romijnders, Nov 19, 2014

I explained it a bit further here: http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/268410/se-conjugations in #7: 'Se' medio - Suzanne_Romijnders, Nov 19, 2014

It was never mentioned in class so I doubt it's the least bit common to use, but it's an easy way to sound like an expert. ;) - Suzanne_Romijnders, Nov 19, 2014

OK, thanx :) - Joydeep_Singh, Nov 19, 2014

I just read it Suzy, but I am still confused :( - Joydeep_Singh, Nov 19, 2014

and this book you have mentioned above, is it in english medium or spanish medium ?? - Joydeep_Singh, Nov 19, 2014