When asking about proper phrase structure.
Hola all you lovely españophiles...
Pregunta!
It sometimes becomes painfully apparent that the grammatical structure of Spanish vs. English can vary greatly and sometimes the way things are constructed/said in Spanish is just not how we would do so in English.
My question to you is, what would be the best way to ask "is this how you would say it?". And I don't mean "¿cómo se dice ____ en español?". That's pretty much used for when you don't know the word for something. But I'm talking about how you would structure a sentence, question, phrase, etc...
I'm inclined to ask "Is this how you would phrase it?" but I'm not entirely sure that frase is used in that context in Spanish.
todas otras maneras
- "Is this/that how you would construct the phrase?"
- "Is this/that how you would phrase it?"
- "Is this/that how it would be said?"
- "Is this/that how _____ ?" (I don't know, you decide! lol)
Would these be appropriate? (i.e. is this the way you would phrase it? HA!)
- ¿Es esto cómo expresaría esto?
- ¿Es esto cómo lo expresaría?
- ¿Es así como lo haría frase?
- ¿Es así como se dice? etc..
Thanks in advance!
7 Answers
I would say:
¿Es así como ("se expresaria" or "se dice") "target sentence" ? Your sentence
The most common way to ask (in Mexico):
¿Lo dije bien?.... ¿Así se dice?
¿Se dice __[English sentence]___ así: ___[Spanish sentence]____?
Literally "Do you say __[English]___ like this: ___[Spanish]___?"
That's my guess, and it seems to line up with what txustaboy says
@gringojrf.
While I understand what you're getting at and I know you said "tongue in cheek" and all but I'm going to have to wholeheartedly disagree with your overall assertion.
If they understand what you intended to say with your sentence, then only minor or no correction is needed. If they don't understand what you intended to say, then they cannot read your mind to help you so all the can do is guess.
lol What? Ok bit by bit here...
I could point, hold my groin and say "el baño?" and they would know what I mean. That doesn't mean that in order to ask "dónde está el baño?" that I would need but a "small correction" to my understanding of Spanish if I were to ask "what's the proper way to ask 'where is the bathroom?". Or I could go to a restaurant and simply point at the menu and say "sí" and nod or I could point at a menu item and say "cuánto? ehh... uh.. dinero?" and they would understand what I was trying to say. But that's a far cry from learning that "Cuánto cuesta la comida?" is how they would ask "how much is the meal/food?".
But those are of course extreme examples and I know that's not what you meant so I'll refrain from the reductio ad absurdum from here on.
But my point still stands. There can be a rather noticeable chasm between saying something most-of-the-way appropriately so that your meaning is understood and nailing down the way a native speaker would phrase it. And that is the motive for a lot of people that actually want to learn the language and not just "be able to communicate".
If they DON'T understand what you mean then you're either nowhere near the proficiency where you should be too worried about how they would phrase it exactly or if you are but perhaps you totally botched it because you just flubbed some words, it's not difficult to just ask/say it again and refine your words. It's not as if your interactions with natives are a question on "who wants to be a millionaire" and you're all out of lifelines lol.
Sorry! I say this only partially tongue in cheek. If you are really concerned about getting the grammar perfect then go ahead and ask. But ask too often and they will start avoiding you.
Remember the goal is communication not perfect grammar, which almost noone uses.
It's not about perfect grammar. I never said that but I do realize that that's how it could've been taken so apologies for any ambiguity. I'll touch on that again in a moment but keep that in mind.
"but ask too often and they will start avoiding you"... really? I ... Who? Who would do this? lol.
I just find it disheartening that on one of the largest Spanish learning resources around, filled to the brim with natives of both languages trying to learn the finer nuances of the other, that you'd suggest that asking how to say something properly too much would somehow be offputting. Especially considering that that very topic (how would you say this?) is a large percentage of the questions on here. By some order of magnitude lol.
And aside from that, one thing I've noticed is that Spanish speakers in general love their language and more often than not are just all too thrilled to help you with it.
Some Perspective
Now, first, I'd just like to say that I have a language exchange partner and one of the reasons that we hooked up and clicked so well is that his main goal, seeing as how he's been a student of English for many years and is rather high level, was to learn the finer nuances of English phrasing and every day speech. Not "How does the book say it should be said?" but rather "How do you English natives actually say this?". Basically he wants to clean up his English and sound more native in his phrasing. So, every week he sends me various Spanish to English translations that he does. Business letters, misc. correspondences, etc... Now, in every instance, I understand 100% what he's saying and the meaning comes across. But there are glaring errors in how he says it and there are buch better ways to say/phrase it.
I'll give you an example to drive the point home.
His Sample Translation
Firstly, it´s necessary to paint the walls. We could let our things stored for a week if this helped. Secondly, we´d need a new washing machine because the one that we currently have loses more water than never and we always have to dry the kitchen´s floor after every wash. Thirdly, we think we need a plumber to peek in on the bathroom pipes due to the fact that they do an odd noise when we open the taps. Lastly we need a cable TV package; I´ve lost many football matches lastly. Don´t worry… the last one was a joke!
My Correction.
First(of all), it's necessary to paint the walls. We could have our things stored for a week if that helps. Second, we'd need a new washing machine because the one that we currently have loses/is losing more water than ever and we always have to dry the kitchen floor after every wash. Third, we think we need a plumber to peek in on the bathroom pipes due to the fact that they make an odd noise whenever we open the taps. Finally, we need a cable TV package; I've lost many football matches lately. Don't worry... that/the last one was a joke.
Now... is his first translation a big bag of "wtf?"? No, of course not. But, that's not the point. The point is, he wants to phrase things in the way a native English speaker would/might. He wants to eliminate those subtle things that make a native speakers brain cringe ever so slightly because it's just awkward phrasing or the verb doesn't quite fit or whatever reason.
So I suggest changes to his word choice and phrasing, point out some nuances of the ordinal numbers and when to use the -ly ending and when to just use the plain ol'ordinals (conversational/points of discussion vs. list items), point out that noises are made in English not done, point out that smaller parts of a larger whole when talking about structural items generall don't get the possessive apostrophe s thing (kitchen's floor vs kitchen floor), that we don't "let" our things to be stored we "have" them stored or "allow" them "to be stored", etc..etc..etc..
So when I'm asking "Is this how you would phrase it?" I'm asking because I want to know, like my language partner wants to know, not whether I was understood (I have enough proficiency that I know I'm getting my point across), but whether or not I sound like them, their friends, natives in general, etc... or do I sound like a 5 year old when I say this?
And to say "if they know English, just ask them in English" is missing out on the idea of immersion practice. When I am writing or speaking in Spanish, I don't like switching. It doesn't help me to constantly revert back to English in order to ask something and up until now I have actually done that with this very question (is that how you would phrase/say it?) after I've typed something in Spanish. Only, I haven't asked any of the exchange partners how to phrase "is that how you would phrase it?" in español and that's why I came here to ask lol.
The "Perfect Grammar" Fallacy
But back to the perfect grammar thing. I know that the goal is communication but once again, you can communicate perfectly well and still sound like a toddler if you're completely unconcerned about not just grammar but phrasing. Like you said, a lot of folks don't use perfect grammar and therein lies my point of this whole thing. I want to know "is this how it's phrased?" because we all know that plenty of things can be "correct" but also sound almost too proper and perhaps even ridiculous where if a native speaker phrased it that way you might ask "wh... why are you talking like that?"
Say someone is getting straight off the plane from another country. They may greet us with "Hello my friend, how do you do today? It's a pleasure to meet you finally." but if asked later "My English, was it good? Did I say everything properly?" We could say "yes, however, it's ... oh boy, a tad too formal bro. Here, just say 'Hey how's it going buddy? So great to finally meet you in the flesh! So how's your day going?'.". Or conversely, on the minimalist "the goal is to communicate" side, they could just say "Hello friend. To meet you is good joy. The day is going for you?"
One is "proper" and perfectly fine but a bit too formal, one is ... "whoa boy", you know what they mean and they "communicated effectively" because you can gather the meaning from it, but it sounds like a caricature of the cute infantile foreigner, and the other, your correction/suggestion to them is "this is more 'native' and still perfectly fine... it's how we generally phrase it".
~Fin~
So That's the goal here of this question I've posted. I simply wanted to know how to ask "Did I phrase that right? Is that how you would say it?" in order to effectively ask native Spanish folk, that are actively involved in or are willing to help with, the improvement of my Spanish proficiency, if that's how a native speaker would generally say the words that I just used to express something.
¿Ahora, entiendes lo que quiero decir?
That's why I advise everyone to translate from the foreign language to their native language.
That way one can understand the foreign language in terms of our own native language.
This is something like a Catch-22, but not quite.
If they understand what you intended to say with your sentence, then only minor or no correction is needed. If they don't understand what you intended to say, then they cannot read your mind to help you so all they can do is guess.
Sorry! I say this only partially tongue in cheek. If you are really concerned about getting the grammar perfect then go ahead and ask. But ask too often and they will start avoiding you.
Remember the goal is communication not perfect grammar, which almost noone uses.
PS: Don't tell your Spanish teacher that I said that.
Quiero decir: .... Esta carro es rojo. ¿Es correcta esta oración?
No. Debería decir, Este carro es rojo.
Note: It just dawned on me that you may mean asking in English how to say something in Spanish. This only works if the person is bilingual in which case you ask in English and they answer in Spanish.
English is almost identical to Spanish. Pregunta en espaniol. Que estan/son las correcta formas delas preguntas en Espaniol? Correct me if I m wrong.
