differences between normal and pronominal verbs for the same radical and meaning ones

Question

What are the differences between normal and pronominal verbs that have the same radical and meanings? For example in Spanishdict dictionary there are these meanings:

saltar = to skip, to miss out

saltarse = to skip, to miss out

and i saw this example in a text:

me salté un semáforo.

Is "me" obligation as a part of pronominal verb or is it objective pronoun for a normal verb?

Answer 1

We just have "pellizcar" in dictionary. So "me" is objective pronoun.

I don´t know which dictionary you use, but the RAE lists verbs in their regular form and if it can be used also as pronominal, it says so as noted below in bold.

pellizcar.

(Del lat. *vellicic?re; de vellic?re, con infl. de pellis, piel).

1. tr. Asir con el dedo pulgar y cualquiera de los otros una pequeña porción de piel y carne, apretándola de suerte que cause dolor. U. t. c. prnl.

2. tr. Asir y golpear leve o sutilmente algo.

3. tr. Tomar o quitar una pequeña cantidad de algo.

4. prnl. coloq. p. us. Impacientarse o perecerse por algo.

Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados

What does U.t.c.prnl. mean? - gringojrf, Oct 25, 2014

Usado también como pronominal - 005faa61, Oct 25, 2014

Answer 2

Arnold, I followed your link. If you go to the end of the conjugations, there's a link which says "View complete conjugation for pellizcar." If you click on it and go to the bottom, you will see: "This can be reflexive depending on the meaning." Is that the same as pronominal?

Answer 3

I don't know if this will help. But think of saltar and saltarse in the same way that you would think of bañar and bañarse.

The pronomial/reflexive version is emphasyzing the nature of the action is directed back at the doer. In English we often use words like I or myself to acheive the same goal.

Is "me" obligation as a part of pronominal verb or is it objective pronoun for a normal verb?

I cannot think of a single case of using a first person object pronoun with a first person conjugation that is not pronomial/reflexive.

Answer 4

Saltar. = Normal.

Saltarse = pronominal.

Maybe this help you to understad but i dont know how to explain. sorry :(

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbo_pronominal

Answer 5

I don't know what a pronomial verb is.

That's okay. I had no idea what a phrasal verb in ENglish was until Ian posted about them. - gringojrf, Oct 24, 2014

=] - Rey_Mysterio, Oct 24, 2014

Answer 6

Most verbs can be used either as transitives, intransitives or pronominals with the same meaning, as pellizcar (transitive) and pellizcarse (pronominal).

However, in general I would say that the meaning changes when a verb is used as transitive and when it is used as pronominal. Thus, saltar and saltarse have different meanings. For example:

1. (transitive) Salvar de un salto un espacio o distancia. Saltar una zanja.

2. (transitive) Omitir voluntariamente o por inadvertencia parte de un escrito, al leerlo o copiarlo. (You can use it also as pronominal) Me he saltado un renglón, un párrafo, una página.

3. (intransitive) Alzarse con impulso rápido, separándose de donde se está.

4. (intransitive) Arrojarse desde una altura. Saltar desde un trampolín.

Answer 7

Another exclusion:

1- The normal verb (mudar= to change) :

Me mudo las sábanas todos los días = I change my sheets every day.

2- The pronominal verb counterpart (mudarse= to move house)

Me mudo a Valencia = I move to Valencia .

In both sentences we have "Me mudo" but the first is the normal verb and the second is pronominal one.

In the first sentence the "me" is not needed, in fact it is wrong. You are using Me wher you should be using Yo (either explicit or implicit. - gringojrf, Oct 24, 2014

The "me" is not needed, but its use is not wrong either. It simply emphasizes who is affected by the action (owner/user of the sheets), while I would not consider the verb in this case pronominal - 005faa61, Oct 25, 2014

Answer 8

Dear JulianChivi, I always like your answers!

I uses spanishdict. please refer this link:

http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/pellizcar

If it is available a pronominal form, this dictionary exactly mention pronominal.

Answer 9

Eventually, I could find an exclusion:

Ayer me pellizqué la piel con el zipper.= Yesterday I pinched my skin with zipper.

In this sentence both "me" and "pellizqué" are the first person but "me pellizqué" is not a pronominal verb. "pellizqué" is normal verb because we don't have "pellizcarse" in dictionary. We just have "pellizcar" in dictionary. So "me" is objective pronoun.

Answer 10

Thanks to gringojrf,

Yes, If doer and action receiver is the same, we say this structure is pronominal. And this can be possible by understanding the meaning or concept of sentence.

But I wanted to sure what you mean in the last sentence. In fact, I wanted to know if I couldn't translate the real concept of the sentence how can i understand that "me" is a part of pronominal verb according to my other post: http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/267724/realizing-pronominal-verbs-just-from-agreement-between-mete..-and-subject-verbs-person.

I thought maybe it can be translate as an objective pronoun for normal verb.

So In:

Me salté un semáforo.= I skipped a traffic light.

From concept: Doer and action receiver is the same so the verb is pronominal verb.

From my rule: Both "me" and "salté" are the first person so the verb is pronominal verb.

Te laves= you wash yourself.

From concept: Doer and action receiver is the same so the verb is pronominal verb.

From my rule: Both "te" and "laves" are the first person so the verb is pronominal verb.

Te lavo= I wash you.

From concept: Doer and action receiver is the same so the verb is pronominal verb.

From my rule: "te" is second person and "lavo" is the first person so the verb is normal verb.

Answer 11

I know that Saltar is Normal verb and Saltarse is pronominal one but i just want to know when should be used saltar and when saltarse? (or verbs like this).

Answer 12

me mudan does not contravene your rule because the IDO is 1st person singluar and mudan is third person plural. - gringojrf

Do you mean the correct sentence is: "Me mudan las sábanas todos los días = I change my sheets every day." ?

I think the correct sentence is: "Me mudo las sábanas todos los días = I change my sheets every day."

Me mudan las sábanas todos los días = They change my sheets every day. - gringojrf, Oct 25, 2014

Me mudo las sábanas todos los días doesn't make sense unless you live in a sheet and you move your sheet to a new place every day. Me mudo is pronomial and means to move house or change your residence. - gringojrf, Oct 25, 2014

To say: I change my sheets every day is: Mudo mis sábanas todos los días. Mudo is I change. - gringojrf, Oct 25, 2014

yes, you are right. i accept your logic. thanks alot! - arnoldsg72, Oct 25, 2014

No problem. We all get a little confused at times. - gringojrf, Oct 25, 2014

dear gringojrf, how about "cambiar" verb? i saw the common meaning between "cambiar" and "cambiarse" in spanishdict dictionary. Is it true: "me Cambio las sábanas cada día" ? - arnoldsg72, Oct 25, 2014

Answer 13

@ gringojrf

yes "le" is indirect object pronoun. But i intentionally change the sentence for "me"[I.D.O] . Because for both I.D.O and reflexive pronoun in first person it uses "me". And this can Contravene my rule: http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/267724/realizing-pronominal-verbs-just-from-agreement-between-mete..-and-subject-verbs-person

me mudan does not contravene your rule because the IDO is 1st person singluar and mudan is third person plural. - gringojrf, Oct 25, 2014

If you want to say "I change my sheets every day" then "Mudo mis sábanas todos los días. - gringojrf, Oct 25, 2014

Frankly I would say "Cambio mis sábanas cada día." - gringojrf, Oct 25, 2014

Answer 14

le mudan las sábanas todos los días = they change his sheets every day;

"le" is an indirect object pronoun, not a reflexive pronoun. The third person reflexive/pronomial pronoun is "se". In this case the "le" refers to "his" in the English version. In Spanish it reads. They change (for him) the sheets every day. "for him" = "le"

Answer 15

@gringojrf

my example was from spanishdict sictionary so i don't think that it's wrong.

dictionary link:

http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/mudar

le mudan las sábanas todos los días = they change his sheets every day;

@JulianChivi

I don't remember from grammar books that "me" is for emphasizing. But I know "A mi" uses for emphasizing. could you give me a grammar text link about this?

@Winkfish

You are right. I didn't this section of dictionary.

Yes, I think the reflexive verb is a kind of pronominal verbs.

@LuisCacheux

I agree with you if you mean: " Many transitive verbs after changing to pronominal counterparts have intransitive meaning". like: llamar (to call); llamarse (to be called) , enjor (to anger); enjorse (to get angry) , ...

But my problem is that both "Saltarse" and "Saltar" have transitive meaning in dictionary . meaning from: http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/Saltar

saltar (transitive verb): to skip, to miss out (omitir)

saltarse (pronominal verb): to skip, to miss out (omitir)

In the other hand, both "Saltarse" and "Saltar" need direct object. Could you give me an example in Spanish that "Saltarse" doesn't need D.O. (I mean in meaning of "to skip") ?