Impersonal Se vs. Passive Se (Just a few questions).
Se habla español...: This phrase has really been confusing me since it can convey both passive and impersonal translations: "Spanish is spoken" and "They/people speak Spanish." Normally these phrases come with a location, whether it's "here" or in a different country. Does the location make a difference or is it something else I've yet to realize?
The Quiz's Errors: After taking the Impersonal Se vs Passive Se quiz and looking through various forums and lessons online, it seems clear to me that are a few mistakes in the quiz's Q&A format. So what I'm going to do is present some of what they evaluate as the "correct answer" (as well as a couple correct ones which I don't exactly understand) and give what I think should be the right answer underneath in bold. Let me know if it's accurate and if not, let me know what your thoughts are on this.
• "Se aprenden muchas cosas en la escuela." - Impersonal
Se aprende muchas cosas en la escuela.
• "Se guardan los libros en la biblioteca." - Impersonal
Se guarda los libros en la biblioteca.
o
"Se guardan los libros en la biblioteca." -Passive
• "Se busca casa con tres cuartos."
I know this is correct, but I'm just not sure how it would translate into a passive se form exactly. "House with three rooms found?"
• "Se ve la ciudad desde mi ventana."
It took awhile to understand, but I know this also correct since ver is a transitive verb and it has a direct object involved (the city). But this also makes me wonder if this would translate similarly to the impersonal se form - "You/one can see the city from my window." I just don't know how it would it make sense in the passive se form without involving some impersonal entity, which is what probably confuses me the most in regards to this subject. xD
Objectless Transitive Verbs: So I read on this one Spanish site (here: http://www.spanishgrammargenius.com/spanish_passive_se_impersonal_se.htm), that the impersonal se form uses only intransitive verbs and "objectless transitive verbs." So if anyone can clear that up to me as to what that is, I'd really appreciate it. 
P.D. He acabado de unirme este sitio hoy :3 He estado aprendiendo español por tres meses más o menos y hasta ahora tengo un firme conocimiento de la gramática y pronunciación. También puedo hablar decentemente pero mi escritura es mejor que mi capacidad de hablar en el idioma. Realmente espero que pueda leer y hablar y escribir como un nativo algún día. ¡Deséame suerte! Que te vaya bien y nos vemos.
2 Answers
Se aprenden muchas cosas en la escuela." - Impersonal
Correction: Se aprende muchas cosas en la escuela.
You are correct. The first sentence would be better characterized as passive reflexive, and might be translated along the lines of "Many things are learned in school.
"Se guardan los libros en la biblioteca." - Impersonal
Correction: Se guarda los libros en la biblioteca.
o
"Se guardan los libros en la biblioteca." -Passive
Again, you have correctly identified a mistake in the quiz. As with the previous example, our original sentence has been mislabeled as "impersonal" and should be identified as "passive-reflexive."
"Se busca casa con tres cuartos."
I know this is correct, but I'm just not sure how it would translate into a passive se form exactly. "House with three rooms found?"
Here, the word "busca" has been incorrectly translated as "found' when, in fact, it should have been translated as "sought." The original sentence might be translated as "A house with three rooms is sought" or "A house with three rooms is being sought" However, the sentence looks like something one might find in the "classified" section of a newspaper. For this reason, a less literal translation might also suffice, something along the lines of "Wanted: a house with three rooms."
Objectless Transitive Verbs: So I read on this one Spanish site (here: http://www.spanishgrammargenius.com/spanish_passive_se_impersonal_se.htm), that the impersonal se form uses only intransitive verbs and "objectless transitive verbs." So if anyone can clear that up to me as to what that is, I'd really appreciate it.
Given the fact that a transitive verb, by definition, is one that carries a direct object, I would say that the term "objectless transitive verb" should be dismissed entirely. The following example is given on that site:
en los Estados Unidos se come mucho
'people eat a lot in the United States (no mention of what they eat.)
It seems that the author of this example has concluded (incorrectly) that the verb "comer" is acting as "an objectless transitive verb;" however, it must be pointed out that the verb "comer," in this example, is in fact acting as an intransitive verb.
The idea that an impersonal construction can not carry a direct object is, likewise, utter nonsense. The RAE, in its grammar manual, gives the following example for an impersonal sentence:
Se saludó a los dos maestros
In this case, "los dos maestros" acts as the complement, or rather, the direct object of the verb. Again, I would forget the expression "objectless transitive verb" altogether as it is devoid of meaning.
Rather than focusing on whether the verb carries an object or not, it might be more useful to note that in many (though not all) variants of Spanish, there is a tendency to form a complementary relationship between passive and impersonal constructions. In this way, verbs that carry direct objects that refer to people are typically constructed as impersonal; whereas, verbs whose direct objects do not refer directly to people are typically constructed as passive-reflexive. Again, this is just a generalization and does not always hold true (and this is particularly true of regions of South America along the Andean corridor).
A few examples of this complementary relationship are highlighted by the RAE in the following sentence pairs:
Se valora el trabajo - passive reflexive
Se valora a los trabajadores - impersonal (D.O. refers to a group of individuals)Se respetan las fiestas - passive reflexive
Se respeta a las festejantes - impersonal (D.O. refers to a group of individuals)
I don't know if this will help to answer your question, for sure, but it's worth looking at. Your Spanish is much better than mine. jeje Here is a link I found dealing with "Passive se vs impersonal se."
