Why is it Le and not Se?
Hi Everyone,
I'm brand new to this forum and I am trying to learn Spanish using RosettaStone. They do not use any English to explain things, only spanish with the pictures. I think that's probably beneficial for most people, but the type of memory I have would actually make it easier to know the grammatical rules for things so that I can extrapolate usage of the words appropriately to other examples and contexts aside from the exact ones given to me. So, here's my question:
"Ellos le ayudan a su abuelo."
I believe this means "They help their grandfather" (correct me if I'm wrong), but here's what's tripping me up...why isn't it "Ellos se ayudan a su abuelo?" From what I've been able to gather, if the IO of the sentence is "su abuelo" you would typically use se, is that correct? What am I missing?
ETA:
Thank you everyone so much for the help! I am still so confused. If I were to say "Yo te compré las joyas" that would translate as "I bought the jewelry for you" (In the same sentence order, "I for you bought the jewelry") correct? From what I understood from my extremely limited knowledge, I believed te to be the reflexive in this sentence showing who is receiving the jewelry...is that correct? But everything I'm reading from your comments and the link you gave say that reflexives are used when the action is happening to yourself. So is te not a reflexive? Or was the sentence I gave incorrect entirely?
8 Answers
se ayudaron a su abuelo - wrong
le ayudaron a su abuelo - good (They helped their grandpa)
se ayudaron - they helped themselves
Okay, not for the originator of this question, and not to answer this question, but for the interest of other members here.
Use of "le" with ayudar is not considered to truly be leísmo:
http://lema.rae.es/dpd/?key=ayudar
ayudar(se). 1. Cuando significa ‘ofrecer ayuda a alguien’, se ha generalizado su uso como transitivo en gran parte del dominio hispanohablante. Además del complemento directo de persona, suele llevar un complemento con a, si lo que sigue es un infinitivo, o con a o en si lo que sigue es un sustantivo: «Alguien lo ayudó a incorporarse» (JmnzEmán Tramas [Ven. 1991]); «Un psiquiatra [...] puede definir el perfil del asesino y ayudar a su captura» (LpzNavarro Clásicos [Chile 1996]); «Tenía perros amaestrados que lo ayudaban en sus fechorías» (Villoro Noche [Méx. 1980]). Es incorrecto omitir la preposición: «Ayudaron revitalizar el teatro chileno» (Hoy [Chile] 7-13.1.81). En ciertas zonas no leístas, sin embargo, se mantiene su uso como intransitivo, conservando el dativo con que se construía en latín (lat. adiutare): «Su hijo Leoncio le ayuda [a ella] a vivir» (Hoy [El Salv.] 30.1.97) (? leísmo, 4e).
- Con el sentido de ‘valerse [de alguien o algo] como ayuda’, es intransitivo pronominal y se construye con un complemento introducido por de o con: «Navegaba por el centro del río, ayudándose de una larga pértiga» (Torbado Peregrino [Esp. 1993]); «No se ayudaba con ningún bastón» (Montero Trenza [Cuba 1987]).
http://lema.rae.es/dpd/srv/search?id=DRC2Ny6YAD6yEoSWaX
- El panorama, sin embargo, dista mucho de ser sencillo. Por una parte, el leísmo no es un fenómeno que se dé uniformemente en las zonas consideradas leístas; por otra, en las zonas no leístas se documentan casos de leísmo, algunos solo aparentes, explicables por distintas razones:
e) Otro grupo que ofrece confusión es el formado por verbos que han cambiado o están cambiando su régimen, esto es, que se construían habitualmente en el español medieval con pronombres de dativo, como en latín, y que hoy están pasando a construirse mayoritariamente con pronombres de acusativo, como es el caso de ayudar u obedecer. Este proceso de cambio no se ha dado de manera uniforme en todas las áreas. Así, en las zonas no leístas del norte de España el régimen habitual es el dativo: «Vidal le ayudó. Y entre los dos lograron acercarlo al desmonte» (Aparicio Retratos [Esp. 1989]); en América está prácticamente generalizado el acusativo, sobre todo en los países del Cono Sur: «Natí lo ayudó a subir» (RBastos Hijo [Par. 1960]); Andalucía y Canarias son zonas de vacilación: «Lo ayudó a subir» (CBonald Noche [Esp. 1981]); «Ella le ayudó a recostarse en un sofá» (MñzMolina Invierno [Esp. 1987
What this is saying is that although the use of le with ayudar appears to be leísmo, it is not, it does not match the areas where leísmo is prevalent, and instead the verb ayudar was originally intransitive- meaning to provide help to someone, and developed to mean transitively to help someone, and this transition did not take place everywhere.
No,m"Se" is a reflexive pronoun, nlt an indirect object pronoun .. if you say "ellos se ayudan" (a si mismos) .. that would mean .. they help themselves .. not the grand father or some one else.
The indirect object pronouns for 3rd person are "le and les" .. but if we talk about your statement the object of your sentence "grand father" technically is the direct object and the verb ayudar can be used both as transitive and intransitive verb so is very much compatible with direct objects .. so in my opinion .. it would be correct to say "ellos ayudan a su abuelo" .. but some verbs in spanish like llamar, ayudar etc. Are often used as intransitives with direct objects even though they can be used otherwise .. so for example.. I can say ... voy a llamarla mañana (I will call her tomorrow) .. but a native might say " voy a llamarle mañana" .. both sentences are the same except that in the first one I have used a DOP and in the second one an IDOP.. now I have observed that this practice of using IDOPs in place of DOPs is quite common with Native speakers .. and is called "leísmo"..
But comimg back to your question .. no, se ,, cant be used here as it would change the complete meaning of the sentence ,, you can either use the redundant IDOP "le" or just treat it as a direct object and don't use any pronoun ..
You probably now have too much information! There are lots of sites with explanations. You will soon learn about two pronouns together when 'lelo' becomes 'selo'. Here is the site of a retired Professor which has brief but good explanations plus a handy summary of common pitfalls.
and a much bigger online grammar with exercises.
I have linked to sites in English, because when you are learning it is less stressful to read explanations in your own language.
No ,, you are mixing it all up ... in the second sentence you have just mentioned .. te compré las joyas, "te has not been used as a reflexive pronoun but as an imdirect object pronoun .. some personal pronoums are common between DOPs, IDOPs and reflexives . For example "no te preocupes" (here it is the reflexive "te"),,,, then ,, te amo (here "te" is a DOP) ,, then "te voy a regalar un coche" (here "te" is an iDOP)..
Dont get confounded between reflexives and Object pronouns .. read the chapters on personal pronoums in some good grammar book or in the grammar section of SD. Relax .. don't worry .. it will sink in .. paso a paso (step by step).
http://spanish.about.com/od/pronouns/a/pronoun_types.htm
http://spanish.about.com/cs/grammar/a/objectpronouns.htm
http://spanish.about.com/od/pronouns/a/reflexive_pron.htm
Especially review the last two links.
Le is the indirect object pronoun for he, she, it, usted (formal you)
Se is the reflexive for the above and their plurals (les is for plurals as an indirect object): himself, herself, itself, their selves, your selves (ustedes, formal)
The subject is not the same as the indirect object you use le- he helped someone else- he did it to someone else
You use se when he did it to himself. Indirect or direct.
Ayudar is an interesting verb, as in some parts of the Spanish speaking world it takes an indirect object and in some a direct object, but that is a more advanced topic.
Thank you so much everyone, I edited my post to ask my follow-up question...not sure if I should have posted it as a comment
OK is that better?
