Informal and Passive "Se" Constructions
I am curious about the online quiz in the grammar section for "Impersonal Se v. Passive Se".
I DO understand that we use both constructions when the subject is undefined or general. And also that the passive form is used when the verb is transitive (i.e. there is a direct object). However, that still leaves many cases in which an English sentence could be interpreted in either way. Yet the quiz only allows for us to pick "pasivo" o "impersonal". Here are a few examples:
1) Se sirve el helado aquí.
Lo siento. Incorrect. The ice cream is being acted upon by an unmentioned agent and "servir" is a transitive verb, so this is passive.
But I *think you could also think in terms of "One serves ice cream here." (impersonal)**
2) Se ve la ciudad desde mi ventana.
Great work! An unmentioned agent is seeing the city, and "ver" is a transitive verb, so this is passive.
However, you could also argue here that subject is indefinite, and the sentence becomes "One can see the city from my widow" - the impersonal form.
3) Se escribe “pastel” p-a-s-t-e-l.
Nope! Study the explanation. There is no subject nor an agent, but people in general are spelling the word, which is impersonal.
But you could also say an unmentioned agent is doing the spelling, and escribir is a transitive verb, so this passive.
4) Se busca casa con tres cuartos.
Not quite! An unmentioned agent is seeking a house and "buscar" is a transitive verb, so this is passive.
But you could also say that there is no subject or agent, and people in general are looking for a house with three rooms, in which case it is impersonal.
5) Se habla español aqui.
Great work! There is no subject nor an agent, but people in general are speaking spanish, so it is impersonal.
Again, I don't see why we cannot interpret this as "Spanish is spoken here" since the verb is transitive and the subject is null.
In short, for examples in which the verb is transitive there does not seem to be one correct choice - either could be correct. Yet the quiz only allows one option. Am I misunderstanding something?
One thing that I can think of might be the degree of generalisability? The impersonal form seems to be used in cases where things are customary, or generally true. Perhaps, for example, it sounds strange that people in general look for houses with three rooms, while houses with three rooms are being looked for is more believable. But generalisability is a difficult rule of thumb.
Any help you can offer is much appreciated!
4 Answers
I agree with KiwiGirl - and we had have this discussion before - that the only real way to label a sentence passive or impersonal is by noting its plurality agreement because in the end, it could be easily argued that passive is impersonal and impersonal is passive - it rids the sentence of an agent.
A good demonstartion of the difference between the two definitions can be found in your sentence # 4:
Se busca casa con tres cuartos.
This could be either impersonal or passive: Someone is seeking a house / A house is being sought.
However: Se buscan casa con tres pisos: This can only be impersonal because of the lack of plurality: They (plural) are looking for a house (singular). As long as we do not identify "they", this can be called an impersonal sentence.
So it doesn´t really matter what you call it passive or impersonal, as long as the plurality is correct. In either case, there is no agent named.
You're right that often these kinds of sentences could be interpreted as passive or impersonal and really there's not a lot of difference in meaning. The difference is more syntactical than anything.
But sometimes if the surrounding words don't show which is which (ie. If the verb is plural it must be a passive construction rather than an impersonal one) logic can play a part in knowing which is which.
Se sirve el helado aquí.
What are you more likely to be saying.
Ice cream is sold here.
Or
One sells ice cream here?
I'd say the first, making it a passive construction as the ice cream is the focus.
The same with the second one 'se ve la ciudad ..' Surely the city is the focus not whoever it is who can see it, once again passive.
So yes the construction would be the same if it was impersonal but passive is the likely and logical choice. And really at the end of the day does it really matter which label you out on it? The information conveyed is pretty much the same. 
You can carry one with the others 3) is pastel the focus? No it's how a person would spell it, whoever that person might be - so impersonal.
4). If this sign was on a notice board what would it there for? To communicate what someone is doing or to focus on what is being looked for? Surely the second one - passive.
5) this, out of them all, could logically go either way depending on whether you wanted to focus on the language itself (passive) or on the action (impersonal)
I hope that helped somewhat 
I have not taken any quiz my friend but the responses you have highlighted above seem correct to me ..see ,, the impersonal se and the passive se are technically the same and the only technical difference is that whereas the former always needs a transitive verb to be formed (with an explicit object, which becomes the subject of the passive construction) and the later (which in essence is the same as passive se) is built around an intransitive verb with no object (so there is no subject of the new construction once the passive modality is applied and that is why the name impersonal) ..
Some times people may actually think of a construction as an impersonal one where itmactually might be a passive ... and the reason for the confusion is that they both are passive in nature and work the same way ,, except that a proper passive one will have a passive subject ( which derives from the object of the transitive verb in the original active sentence) and the impersonal passive has no passive subject ..
Look at the following examples ..
- Se habla español aquí ..(spanish is spoken here) now most people would think of this as an impersonalmse construction .. but technicaly it is a se passive construction because it has a passive subject "español" and is capable of carrying an agent ... ..for example .. se habla español aquí (por la gente de noroeste) ...
- Se escribe 'pastel' .. (this is the example you have mentioned above) .. now escribir is a dual verb which can be used as transitive and intransitive both .. for example .. he escrito un ensayo para la tarea escolar de mi hijo .. (I have written an essay .. essay is the object .. verb transitive) .. and then we can also say ,, escribo usualmente a mano (what I write is not specified ,, so not object, , verb intransitive) .. so we can use escribir for both passive ans impersonal constructions ..
Se escribe a mano de costumbre (it is usualy written by hand .. or things are usually written by hand customarily ) ,, and now .. look at this one .. se escribe la carta a mano .."a letter is written by hand) .. are you able to make out the difference ?? .. If yes then you are good to go my friend ..hehe .. best of luck ..
Thank you everyone for the great comments and feedback! Yes, I agree that it may not always matter to "know" which form is being used - especially if the general idea is being communicated. But in other cases, a reader or listener might really want to understand the specific intention of the writer or speaker.
Putting together your helpful comments and rules I've gleaned from other resources, here is my best attempt at parsing the informal se and passive se:
1) Is the subject indefinite or non-existent? Is the action carried out by non-specified agent? If yes, you know that you are dealing with either an informal or passive use of "se".
2) Is the verb following "se" plural (eg. se venden)? If yes, you know it is a passive construction. If the verb is singular (se vende), it could be either passive OR impersonal.
3) Does the verb in question have a direct object (i.e. is it used transitively)? If not, you know you are dealing with the impersonal se (eg. Se habla demasiado rápido en la radio). If yes, it could be either passive OR impersonal. (eg. Se prepara una sopa sabrosa).
4) What is the context? Is the emphasis more on the action being performed? Does it sound like custom, rule, general consensus? This would tend to indicate the impersonal se. If the emphasis is more on the object of the action -- which in a reflexive construction, is also the subject -- the passive is likely being used.
a) Se prepara una sopa sabrosa They prepare a tasty soup IMPERSONAL b) Se prepara una sopa sabrosa A tasty soup is prepared PASSIVE
Both options are possible. In this case, b) might sound more likely....But it depends on the context. If the person is speaking about a tradition, custom, or habit of cooking, it could easily be a). It becomes clear with a minor extension of the sentence:
Se prepara una sopa sabrosa para las fiestas de Navidad.
In this case, I would say it becomes nearly impossible to say whether the construction is passive (soup is prepared) or impersonal (one/they/you prepare). Of course, if there is more than one soup, you instantly know that the passive is in play. This is partly what I find rather odd. You cannot pluralize the impersonal!
Se preparan unas sopas sabrosas para las fiestas de Navidad
It becomes especially tricky because the impersonal is sometimes translated as "They", easily leading one to think that the verb is plural because of an impersonal "they", when in fact the pluralization results from the objects in question.
Thank you all again for the really helpful feedback!!
