Personal pronoun order

Question

The post by Gringojrf got me thinking.

http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/264924/pueden-agradecrmelo-ms-tarde

Most of us have learned RID (Reflexive, Indirect, Direct) as the traditional order of pronouns.

But, I have seen an alternative claim (Butt and Benjamin) that the order of the pronouns can be thought of as:

1-se

2-te/os

3-me/nos

4-le/les/lo/la/los/las

His question would have had “me” as the direct object, and the thing for which he was being thanked as the indirect object- and so the question was why was it melo and not leme. The latter combination would be against the other (Butt and Benjamin) rule, but allowed by the RID rule.

So it makes me wonder whether Spanish verbs are constructed in a way that does not allow that to happen (as regards what is the direct object and what is the indirect object).

So I am wondering if anyone can come up with an example breaking this second rule (from a grammatically correct native speaker source, of course). If both rules work, then it may be useful to know both to help avoid pitfalls.

Edit to add:

http://books.google.com/books?id=YZq0AAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f;=false

The above link lets you scroll through the whole book, see section 11.12 page 143

I have never heard of the Butt and Benjamin order. - gringojrf, Jul 17, 2014

http://books.google.com/books?id=YZq0AAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f;=false - bosquederoble, Jul 17, 2014

The above link lets you scroll through the whole book, see section 11.12 page 143. - bosquederoble, Jul 17, 2014

I bought the book- It is a very good book and worth it in my opinion. - bosquederoble, Jul 17, 2014

Thank you for the book recommendation. It looks like it will be very good. - 007c5fc1, Jul 17, 2014

Yes, it is not a text book for learning Spanish, but instead a reference that will give you an answer to a variety of questions, and tells you what is done in various places, and often what RAE has to say about it. - bosquederoble, Jul 17, 2014

And its examples are mostly taken from various published sources (books and newspapers) from a variety of Spanish speaking countries. - bosquederoble, Jul 17, 2014

I really like learning posts. I hope we get JulianChive to chime in. - Jubilado, Jul 17, 2014

disculpa yo lo que quiêro es aprender ingles - rocioavila, Jul 17, 2014

Answer 1

Ok, I'm back ...

After talking about this with another 'grammar geek' friend of mine who is the bomb at pinning this kind of tricky thing down (thank you Quentin) this is what we've come up with as far as a grammar rule goes and it's simpler than you may imagine.

As you mentioned Bosque, most people learn the RID rule to know which order to put object pronouns. Reflexive, indirect, direct. And if we just use that it seems like there's no reason why le me wouldn't work, with 'me' being the direct object pronoun.

The only problem is that there is another rule that must be obeyed first and foremost

RAE's Diccionario panhispánico de dudas basically says that the pronoun order must go as follows ...

"Se" (if it occurs) first, then the second person, first person, third person.

So simply put ... for your example 'le me' - you'd be putting the third person before the first person which just can't happen.

I hope that helps and although I knew I'd never seen 'le me' or heard it and instinctively knew it was wrong, I do like to know the reason/rule behind it, so thanks for raising the question.

Which is precisely the order my book gives. Since R I D works- it must be that anything that would put the two in conflict (like le me) is simply expressed another way. - bosquederoble, Jul 23, 2014

So I suppose anyting that one come's up with must follow both rules. - bosquederoble, Jul 23, 2014

PS thank you for going to all that work. If the RAE confirms it- that is all I need. - bosquederoble, Jul 23, 2014

My pleasure :) Yeah it's always nice to get confirmation from RAE ;) - Kiwi-Girl, Jul 23, 2014

Answer 2

Since I don't understand Spanish grammar, can you do away with examples?

Thanks.

I refuse to learn my own grammar and yes, you can call me ignorant or ignoramus!

I redid it with examples in another thread. Pronoun order revisited. And I don't know English grammar. Why bother when I know what sounds good. So I understand perfectly. - bosquederoble, Jul 19, 2014

If one knows how to speak properly, grammar is just grammar and what difference does it make, really? - rac1, Jul 19, 2014

But if you're learning another language you won't automatically know what sounds good and what doesn't, I think that a certain understanding of grammar when learning another language can really help but I know I'm a lone voice in the wilderness jeje - Kiwi-Girl, Jul 19, 2014

Kiwi, not automatically, but you don't the foreign language's grammar either. That's the beauty of my method. :) - chileno, Jul 19, 2014

I'll try to look for that other thread.... - chileno, Jul 19, 2014

My comment only related to my native language, clearly I am trying to learn the grammar of Spanish, so that I can train myself as to what sounds good. - bosquederoble, Jul 19, 2014

Answer 3

No the question is can "le" ever be the indirect object while "me" ( or "te" which also can be either) is the direct object. Leave "lo" and all the 3rd person direct object pronouns out of it. I am asking if "le" or "les" ever combine with "me" or "te". - bosquederoble

Ah I see, sorry, hmmm well I can't think of a rule off the top of my head but I have to say that I've never seen such a combination. I'll see what I can find out about it.

Thank you, I suspect such a combination is just never done- it just gets done some other way. Your not being able to come up with an example either is very helpful. - bosquederoble, Jul 18, 2014

Answer 4

His question would have had “me” as the direct object, and the thing for which he was being thanked as the indirect object- and so the question was why was it melo and not leme.

Hmmm have you overthought this?

Iop's = me, te, le, os, les (and se when avoiding le la etc)

Dop's = me, te, lo, la, nos, os, los, las

So although me can be either, lo can never be an indirect object pronoun.

Pueden agradecérmelo.

Me = indirect object pronoun

Lo = direct obect pronoun

'It' (lo) (the gratitude) can be expressed 'to me' (me) later.

Following the R.I.D. order. (Coincidentally the same order shown in your excerpt from Benjamin & Butt (great book btw)).

So I believe that all is well in the world of Spanish object pronouns

Unless I've missed something?

No the question is can "le" ever be the indirect object while "me" ( or "te" which also can be either) is the direct object. Leave "lo" and all the 3rd person direct object pronouns out of it. I am asking if "le" or "les" ever combine with "me" or "te". - bosquederoble, Jul 18, 2014

Answer 5

Okay, I probably was a little too long-winded and indirect in my original question.

I have no questions regarding how to use lo with me. I felt I understood it well enough to answer gringojrf's original question. It brought up a completely different question for me:

My question is:

Are there any cases where either "me" or "te" would be used as direct objects in combination with either "le" or "les" as indirect objects around the same verb (either both immediately preceding it, or both attached to the end of it). And I should clarify that I am asking for a non-reflexive use of me or te- the verb should not be conjugated to either object.

Sorry for not being sufficiently clear.