Subjunctive in this situation?

Question

Hi there,

So I have to write a speech for class and I've come across a subjunctive question. I know there are like a billion different phrases that require the subjunctive, but that basically it suggests a subjective or hypothetical view. I have a sentence that is hypothetical but has no subjunctive triggering phrase, should I be using the subjunctive? Here's the sentence:

Aquí la empatía que debemos aprender pueda ayudarnos. (Here the empathy that we should learn can/could help us.)

Also, is aquí the right word? I am referring to a place in time, not a place in physical space. Is this correct?

Thank you very much in advance!

Welcome to SpanishDict. - rac1, May 28, 2014

A vote for a very good question - Welcome to SD. - ian-hill, May 28, 2014

yes I agree, good question indeed .. hehe - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

James , please read my post urgently as I have support for the use of subnjunctve from my native Spanish teacher :) - FELIZ77, May 28, 2014

lok at Chileno's second answer, the subjunctive in the past tense. I think that is what you need. - annierats, May 28, 2014

yes Annie dear that's the same as my answer hehe .. imperfect subjunctive with deber ( to express politeness .. but the use of subjunctive with deber here is just to express politeness .. nothing to do with the actual subjunctive logic .. hehe ) - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

Wow, thank you all so much. When I asked initially I never imagined how much support I'd get here. You have greatly exceeded anything I expected. Thanks everyone so much!!! - JamesBridge, May 29, 2014

you are welcome :) - 00b055e0, May 29, 2014

Answer 1

No .. there is no subjunctive needed ... the subjunctive is normally only needed in a subordinate or a dependant clause ,, not in the main clause .. I have dissected the sentence for you (look below) so you could understand it well .. :

La empatía (que debemos aprender) puede ayudarnos.

OK, now if you look carefuly at the structure of the sentence (the dissected one) .. you can bifurcate it into three parts .. now, the middle one (which I have enclosed in the brackets) : "que debemos aprender" is a subordinate adjective clause (which acts as a stand alone adjective and modifies the meaning of it's antecedent noun "la empatía") .. now an adjective dependent clause may need a subjunctive if the antecedent (la empatía) may be a vague one or indefinite or non existent or unreal .. but in this case your antecedant noun seems quite real to me .. first because you have used the definite article "la"(which in itself is an indicator of the definite nature of the noun) and secondly as you know exactly what is it that you are talkimg about (the concept of empathy.. which is quite real and not a vague one) .. so as per the rules of spanish grammar .. no subjunctive is needed in this adjective clause ..

Now let's move on to the next and the final part of our dissected sentence "puede ayudarnos " Now this is actually a part/continuation of the main clause (and not a seperate dependant clause with a different subject) which is why I have highlighted the first part and the last one in italics ,, because they are actually one single clause ,, if we remove the middle part (the adjective clause .. which only serves the role of an adjective here) you can also say "la empatía puede ayudarnos" which in essence is a single clause (main clause) with a subject (la empatía), a verb (puede ayudar) and an object pronoun (nos) .. and a subjunctive is not usually needed in main clauses (unless we are talking about some exceptions like querer, poder or deber) ... querer, poder and deber are exceptions and you may see them used in imperfect subjunctive form in the main clauses (just as an expression of politeness or courtesy .. but lets not delve into that realm for now .. else you may get confused) ..

So my friend ... as such no subjunctive is required throughout your sentence .. but just to make your sentence more courteous and pleasant you may use imperfect subjunctive on deber .. hehe .. So if I were you, I would say : la empatía que debieramos aprender aquí puede ayudarnos

I know, you might get a little confused after reading the detailed explication above .. but my friend .. this is the arena of subjunctive and there is no short cut to understand how it works .. if you need any further clarification please feel free to ask ..

And my friend Chileno is a native and he can give you the exact native version of it .. so I would suggest you go with his advice (if it may differ with mine) ...

Regards . Jimmy

Thank you so very much! Yes it is a bit confusing but it's brilliant, I can come back to this. You're great! I'm sorry, I "don't have enough reputation" to vote both of you up but I would and I'll try to remember to when I can. Again, brilliant and thanks - JamesBridge, May 28, 2014

my friend, there is much more to subjumctives than mere umcertainty, disbelief, emotions etc.. there are many rules of grammar that govern the use of subjumctive (and these rules differ between different clause types) .. so don't just go with concept of - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

uncertainty in your mind .. hehe .. there is a lot more to it ... and you are most welcome - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

and welcome to the forum :) - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

james, like deber .. u may also use poder inmimperfect subjumctive or conditional (podría) to make it sound more polite (but not because there is a subjunctive needed ..hehe) - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

Answer 2

OK, I didn't see the English version, so...

Here the empathy that we should learn can/could help us. = Aquí, la empatía que debiéramos aprender podría ayudarnos.

debiéramos is in subjunctive.

Let's see what your teacher says, because the way i see it, both version have problems with grammar anyway. I am not explaining for the moment.

absolutely correct .. :) - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

At least you can detect it in the English version, right? :) - chileno, May 28, 2014

haha .. Right amigo :) - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

Thisa sounds better to me too.For what it's worth. - annierats, May 28, 2014

hehe - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

Answer 3

What are you trying to say in English? That first.

What I'm trying to say in English is in brackets after the Spanish sentence: "Here the empathy that we should learn can/could help us." - JamesBridge, May 28, 2014

Answer 4

Hello James,

Welcome to the SpanishDict forum

I would say that you do not need the subjunctive here because you do not have two different subjects: We and us are the same/refer to the same 3rd person plural

If you had said the empathy that we should learn can (could) help you then you would have two (different) subects

I would like to buy a diamond ring = Quiero comprar un anillo diamante

...The sentence .above should be written in the indicative because there is only one subject

but

I want you to buy me a diamond ring

Quiero que me compres un anillo diamante

This second sentence immediately above should be written in the subjunctive because there are two (separate/distinctive) subjects) not the same subject in both clauses!

I have just found some information in a PDF file sent from my native Spanish teacher (from Spain) that confirms what I believe and have just said: (Relavant part highlighted!)

WHEN USED INDICATIVE OR SUBJUNCTIVE The indicative is used when there are two verbs in a sentence (which expresses the desire and expressing action) and both refer to the same person. Indicative can be used for the past, present or future. Example: (a mí) Me gustaría viajar por el mundo The subjunctive is used when both verbs refer to different people. Present subjunctive is used when referring to the present or the future. Example: Espero (yo) que vengan todos mis amigos (ellos) a la fiesta.

Now regarding/ to come back to your own sentence, I would say:

En este caso / o en esta situación ...la empatía que debemos aprender puede (podría) ayudarnos.

. Here (ie: in this situation) the empathy that we should learn can (could) help us.

I hope this helps

hello my friend .. we don't even have a seperate indipendant noun clause here so there is no question of there being another subject ... there can never be two different subjects in the same clause ... but you are correct that there is no subjunctive - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

needed .. hehe ... and how is it going my friend :) - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

I mean seperate dependant noun clause (correction) ..hehe - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

we talk about the duality of subjects when there is a main clause and a subordinate noun clause ... for example ... no creo que ella venga a la fiesta ... here there is a main/indipendant clause introducing disbelief "no creo que " (I don't believe) - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

and then there is a second clause which is subortinating the main clause(is dependant upon the main clause and is acting as the object of the main clause) .."que ella venga a la fiesta" now this is the clause where the subjunctive is needed if ot has a d - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

if it has a different subject (which in this case it does hehe) ... you may discuss this with your teacher for a better understanding my friend .... ok I have to take leo for a walk now .. see you later .. love and warm regards .. jimmy - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

and I sure vote up your diligent explanatoon :) .. take care my friend .. - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

sorry for the typos : explanation :( - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

Jimmy with respect I am going with what I have already said based on what my Spanish teacher has told me :) - FELIZ77, May 28, 2014

and I respectfuly disagree my friend .. it is a little complicated .. but never mind .. we will discuss later .. little busy right now .. hehe .. take care - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

I never said ,, what you said is wrong ,, I am just saying that it is not applicable in this sentemce as it cant have a second subject .. (looking at the structure of the sentence ) .. what your teacher taught u is absolutely correctm.. it's just that - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

sentemces can have different structures .. we will discuss this in detail some other time my friend .. warm regards .. - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

ok .. look at this sentemce .. estoy buscando un libro que tenga solamente cinco paginas ... (how many subjects do you see in this one .. just one right but still there is a subjunctive used) .. subjunctive is vast my friend ... I will send u a pm when I - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

have time .. I can also fit two subject in a single clause (by using some conjungtion) and gove you an example with two subjects without a subjumctive .. so your teacher is right about two different subjects but one must also know as to which kind of c - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

clauses is that rule applicable in (I have already given you one example with a single subject where subjunctive is used) .. ok my good friend ,. bye for now .. see you soon .. hehe - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

I just sent you a PM my good friend .. please read at your earliest convinience .. .. bye bye - 00b055e0, May 28, 2014

Answer 5

Also, is aquí the right word? I am referring to a place in time, not a place in physical space. Is this correct?

Yes you may, aquí is primarily an adverb of location (physical location) but also has temporal connotations .. depends on what exactly you are trying to say or convey ..

You can use "ahora" .. if you want to say .. the empathy that we will learn "now" .. or some other adverbial expressions of time like 'este momento' etc. Chileno can tell you or guide you better on this one,, hehe ..

I am waiting for his response .. May be I might also learn some thing new from his answer .. hehe

Chileno, where are you my friend ?