Which "se" are they--impersonal or passive?
In your opinion, which "se" are they?
(1) Se habla español aquí.
(2) Se prohibe fumar.
(3) No se permiten fotos aquí.
Is it correct for me to translate "impersonal se" as "people, one, they or you" and to translate "passive se" as " X is/are (pp.)" (X refers to the thing(s) behind the 3rd verb)?
For example,
Se habla español en Costa Rica. (People speak Spanish in Costa Rica.)
Se busca casa con tres cuartos. (A house with three rooms is wanted.)
9 Answers
If so, how do you call sentences like "Se debe trabajar mucho para tener éxito." , "¿Cómo se va al teatro?" and "Se dice que va a llover."?
I really need your guidance. Por favor!
If you would translate the sentence saying 'one' 'people' (as in 'la gentle' sing) or 'you' (as long as you don't mean 'you' as in 'you' the person you are speaking to) ... do such and such .... then these kind of sentences are impersonal.
This construction is good for when the subject of the verb is irrelevant, unknown or hypothetical etc.
The se here is the object pronoun that refers to the impersonal subject (one, you, or la gente) and for this reason the verb will always be in the third person singular. So this would be the impersonal 'se'. I'm not quite sure why JC has a problem with it but I'm sure he uses it perfectly - often in our own native (or native-ish) language in JC's case we may not know all the grammar names for everything even though we are fluent and use the language practically to perfection. I know I'm probably the same with English grammar lol.
For the passive construction it's like things get changed around and the direct object becomes the subject of the sentence. For this reason the verb will be singular or plural to agree with the direct object.
Eg. This example from Benjamin & Butt highlights the difference between the two.
Es difícil vender periódicos en un país donde se leen poco. Passive se: It's difficult to sell newspapers in a country where they aren't read much.
But
Es difícil vender periódicos en un país donde se lee poco. Impersonal se: It's difficult to sell newspapers in a country where people don't read much.
The problem really only arises when singular nouns are involved because then the passive and impersonal constructions are identical.
Se habla español aquí.
People speak Spanish here. (Impersonal)
Spanish is spoken here. (Passive)
I do not think there is a conflict there.
The practical way I learned is:
Reflexive form of a verb (the action falls to the self) :
(yo) me peino con tu cepillo casi siempre
(tú) te llevaste mis libros anoche
(él, ella) se tomó una semana de vacaciones
(nosotros) nos acabamos la botella de tequila
(ustedes) se encuentran en una situación incómoda
(ellos, ellas) se regresaron por el camino largo
Passive voice ( we do not know who is doing the action):
Se venden partes usadas para su coche
Se hacen todo tipo de trabajos de albañilería
Se busca auxiliar de ventas para trabajo matutino
Se tiene que cambiar el diseño de esta casa
I would say these are passive;
Spanish is spoken here. ( It can actually translate as: We speak Spanish here, if it's , for example on a shop door).
Smoking is forbidden ( It is forbidden to smoke).
Taking photos is not allowed ( photography is not allowed here).
Hola, HackerKing. What do you mean "They can be either"? Your sentence is too short to understand. - joygogo
He means that the passive and impersonal se constructions are identical in the third person singular.
Se habla chino en Hing Kong.
Chinese is spoken in Hong Kong. (Passive)
People speak Chinese in Hong King. (Impersonal)
Se hacen todo tipo de trabajos de albañilería
This should be: "se hace todo tipo ......" for passive voice ("tipo" is the subject).
(ellos, ellas) se regresaron por el camino largo
For impersonal, this should be: Regresaron por el camino largo although this particular sentence would probably be found in a dialogue that had context identifying ellos making it not impersonal.
Impersonal is not passive voice because it has a subject (ellos). Normally we use impersonal to indicate something that has happened in the past and there is nothing in context to identify ellos, ie: Ayer le robaron a un amigo mío (impersonal / not passive). The subject is "ellos" but nobody has really been identified).
Passive voice uses se and impersonal does not, so "impersonal se" is a confusing term that is best avoided.
Using se to create reflexive should not be called "impersonal se" because it is not impersonal at all - it´s just the opposite in that it indicates action done to one´s self, ie: Me baño en las mañanas ..... I bathe (myself) in the mornings.
It can be both.
The "se" impersonal means that one does something to the self, it is used in the 3rd person singular or plural:
Juan se divierte mucho en las ferias.- Juan enjoys fairs
The "se" passive means something is done, without mentioning the subject:
Se venden motocicletas -motorcycles are sold
Hola, Annie,
Many thanks for answering this question. The reason why I ask this question is I need someone or more people to verify my doubt which was caused by the example sentences given in one of "SD's grammar" units--"impersonal se". http://www.spanishdict.com/topics/show/86
Since "impersonal se" and "passive se" confuse me a lot, I read the three grammar units "impersonal se", "impersonal se vs. passive se" and "passive se" three times. I have no problem with most examples they gave except the following five sentences, including the three ones I ask here.
(1) Se necesita que la gente proteja la Tierra. (It's necessary that people protect the Earth.)
(2) Se habla español aquí. (Spanish is spoken here.)
(3) Se dice que va a llover mañana. (It's said it is going to rain tomorrow.)
(4) Se prohibe fumar. (Smoking is prohibited.)
(5) No se permiten fotos aquí. (Photographs are not permitted.)
How about Sentences (1) and (3)?
In your opinion, are they "impersonal se" or "passive se"?
Since the sentence pattern "se + 3rd person verb + que clause" is not especially mentioned in the 3 grammar units, I am not sure which they are.
Hola, Kiwi-Girl,
Thank$ a million for your excellent answer. Now I have a clearer idea about "Se".
Is it correct for me to translate "impersonal se" as "people, one, they or you" and to translate "passive se" as " X is/are (pp.)" (X refers to the thing(s) behind the 3rd verb)?
For example,
Se habla español en Costa Rica. (People speak Spanish in Costa Rica.)
Se busca casa con tres cuartos. (A house with three rooms is wanted.)
I wonder why there is nobody answering my above question directly, but after reading your explanation, my surmise seems to be very close.
(1) impersonal se
The se here is the object pronoun that refers to the impersonal subject (one, you, or la gente) and for this reason the verb will always be in the third person singular. So this would be the impersonal 'se'.
(2) passive se
For the passive construction it's like things get changed around and the direct object becomes the subject of the sentence. For this reason the verb will be singular or plural to agree with the direct object.
Kiwi-Girl, you hit the nail on the head! And the two example sentences you gave from B&B are great!
The problem really only arises when singular nouns are involved because then the passive and impersonal constructions are identical.
Muchas gracias por tu ayuda! ^_^
Saludos,
Joy
Hola, Julian,
Thanks for your reply though you may write it for Pacofinkler to read. But what you wrote is very helpful to me to think more about the difference between “passive se” and “impersonal se”. Actually I learned about these two terms from SD’s grammar section. But according to your saying, you don’t agree at the so-called “impersonal se”. Well, I have no problem with “reflexive se” and I have a clear idea about what “impersonal” means. After reading your answer, I have three questions.
(Question 1)
This should be: "se hace todo tipo ......" for passive voice ("tipo" is the subject).
Do you mean in the sentence pattern "se + 3rd person verb + noun", the noun behind the verb is actually the subject?
How come the grammar unit "passive se" didn't tell us this directly? Let me quote what it said:
The pronoun se is used in passive sentences where the object to which the noun refers is also the subject of the verb.
I don't think the meaning of this sentence is very clear, is it?
(Question 2)
Impersonal is not passive voice because it has a subject (ellos).
But don't you just say "se hace todo tipo ......" for passive voice ("tipo" is the subject)?
(Question 3)
Passive voice uses se and impersonal does not, so "impersonal se" is a confusing term that is best avoided.
If so, how do you call sentences like "Se debe trabajar mucho para tener éxito." , "¿Cómo se va al teatro?" and "Se dice que va a llover."?
I really need your guidance. Por favor!
Joy
