Why does this sentence need a "se"?

Question

I am learning a new word ocurrir and its example sentence.

No se me ocurre nada que decirle. (I can’t think of anything to say to her.)

I don't understand why se is needed in this sentence.

Answer 1

It's because the verb is ocurrirse not ocurrir which is different. -Ocurrirse: Come up with/Come to mind -Ocurrir: Happen

Perfect - Jubilado, Dec 4, 2013

But it already has "me" in the sentence, why does it need "se"? - joygogo, Dec 4, 2013

You were right, joygogo. I looked up and found that "se me ocurre" implies a verb with a double pronoun (verbo doblemente pronominal). Ex: Verbos doblemente pronominales: se me antoja una paella; se me ocurre una cosa. Check this site in English: http://w - Gloriange, Dec 4, 2013

Link to the website: http://www.123teachme.com/learn_spanish/intransitive_verbs_theory_b - Gloriange, Dec 4, 2013

You are correct Joy, and seem to already recognize ocurrirse. The se here is different and additional, I think. I'll tag on below. - rogspax, Dec 4, 2013

Thanks for that link Gloriange. It didn´t come through all the way, but it should be enough to track it down after finals. I need to read that and dig a bit deeper. Thanks! - rogspax, Dec 5, 2013

Many thanks, Gloriange. You are the first one to answer this question and find me the link. You are sweet! - joygogo, Dec 5, 2013

Answer 2

I think Annie's answer is maybe actually more on point here. Since the "me" is in there, the "se" portion of ocurrirse (the reflexiveness) is already addressed. I don't think Joy is missing the difference between ocurrirse and ocurrir.

The Se is above and beyond, and is more like the unintended consequences and deflecting of responsibility so common in Spanish in constructions like

Se me olvidó la respuesta.

Se me rompió el vaso.

etc etc.-

No se me ocurre nada que decirle.

Nothing occurs to me to say to you (see, we do it in English too, even if less often)

vs the more active, I can´t think of anything to say to you.

Good examples at the end. - gringojrf, Dec 4, 2013

Nice answer! - Noetol, Dec 4, 2013

Thank you very much, Roger. You always read each person's answer very carefully and give me lots of help. You are wonderful! Please click this question again to read my feedback. - joygogo, Dec 5, 2013

You´re welcome Joy. Glad to do it, and explaining (or trying to) generally helps the explainer too. Just always remember I´m learning too, and could be wrong. Cuídate! - rogspax, Dec 5, 2013

Answer 3

Joygo, it behaves rather like ' olvidarse'. It's the thing that occurs to you, not you that think of it.

exactly. - rogspax, Dec 4, 2013

You hit the nail on the head, Annie! - Noetol, Dec 4, 2013

Thanks! - annierats, Dec 4, 2013

Annie, thank you for the example word though it is novel to me. - joygogo, Dec 5, 2013

Answer 4

To whoever answered this question,

Thank each of you for sharing what you know with me. However, I still don't get it.

I clicked the link Gloriange gave me (http://www.123teachme.com/learn_spanish/intransitive_verbs_theory_b) and read that article. Honestly, after I read it, two of the example sentences confused me more. (1) Me escapó de la memoria (it escaped my memory) (2) Se me escapó de la memoria (it escaped my memory) The above two sentences are translated the same! How come?

Rogspax is right that I do understand the difference between ocurrirse and ocurrir, so I assume that me is the se portion of ocurrirse and feel very confused why there is still a se in the sentence.

As for the word "olvidarse" Annierats mentioned, it's a brand new word to me so I looked it up in the SD, but it just said "forget." Then I looked up "olvidar" instead and found the following information.

olvidar transitive verb

1. to forget (hecho, dato, persona)

olvidé las llaves en la oficina (I left my keys at the office olvidarse)

olvidarse pronomial verb

1. to forget (en general)

olvidarse de algo/hacer algo ( to forget something/to do something )

me olvidé de su cumpleaños ( I forgot her birthday )

(I can understand the above sentences but wonder why there is a de behide olvidar. Is "olvidar de" a fixed phrase?)

se me olvidaba decirte que… ( I almost forgot to tell you that… )

(It confuses me again! Why is there a "se" in it?)

Since I don't know the reason why, of course, I can't understand the examples Rogspax and Swampy gave me.

Se me olvidó la respuesta.

Se me rompió el vaso.

Se me abrió la maleta.

However, Kiwi-Girl gave me a very good hint that "The se is because the verb ocurrirse is pronominal..."The 'se' doesn't have a translation but it's just part of the verb, technically I think they're known as "doblemente pronominales", because they must be used with two pronouns." I tried to click "doblemente pronominales" to read what it says but the linkage doesn't work. Instead, I reread SD's grammar about pronominal which says that it includes two types: Reflexive Verbs and Reciprocal Verbs. Then I found another article online (www.elearnspanishlanguage.com) which says that there are three types: Reflexive Verbs and Reciprocal Verbs and Idiomatic Spanish Pronominal Verbs. By accident, I think I found the key article which seems to be the answer to my question.
Spanish Reflexive Pronoun Se with Unplanned Occurrences http://www.elearnspanishlanguage.com/grammar/verb/accidentalreflexive.html

I will take a good look at it later, and if I still have any question, I will consult you all again. Thanks for all your help! You all are so lovely!

Joy

I like trying to answer your questions because yous ay thank you so nicely! Thanks. - annierats, Dec 5, 2013

The solution to your question is in the "Spanish Reflexive Pronoun Se with Unplanned Occurences". Send me a Personal Message if you need more clarification. - Jubilado, Dec 5, 2013

Thank you, Annie! You are so kind! - joygogo, Dec 6, 2013

Thanks for your kind offer, Jubilado. I will do so because this sentence pattern is quite strange and brand new to me. - joygogo, Dec 6, 2013

Jubilado offers great advice there. I think if you just follow his hint you'll do well. I"ll add that some books also refer to them as "Unintended (or unintentional) actions", or almost any possible combo of Jubilado's & my terminology. Just absorb now - rogspax, Dec 7, 2013

Thank you so much, Roger! - joygogo, Dec 8, 2013

Answer 5

The se is because the verb ocurrirse is pronominal.

Me is the indirect object pronoun to show who is affected.

Ocurrir = to happen

Me ocurrió = it happened to me

Ocurrirse = to come to mind, to occur to someone

Se me ocurrió. It occurred to me.

The 'se' doesn't have a translation but it's just part of the verb, technically I think they're known as "doblemente pronominales", because they must be used with two pronouns. You couldn't ever just say 'se occurió'.

Keep in mind that the verb will match the subject not the indirect pronoun 'me',

Eg in "se me ocurre una idea", "una idea" is the subject of the sentence so the verb appears in the singular. But if you had two ideas, the verb would change to the plural "se me ocurren dos ideas".

Great explanation, Kiwi! - Noetol, Dec 4, 2013

Gracias señor :) - Kiwi-Girl, Dec 4, 2013

Very nice. I remember the double pronomials being taught back a couple semesters ago, but they were introduced exclusively in the context of the unintended actions group, and a few stragglers like se me ocurrió. - rogspax, Dec 5, 2013

But it wasn´t brought up as if it were ocurrirse plus a DOP. It appears we may have just grazed the surface and a limited subset. I need to read more on this after finals. Thanks Kiwi. - rogspax, Dec 5, 2013

Muchas Gracias, Kiwi-Girl! You gave me a good guidance. However, the linkage you offer here doesn't work. Would you please redo it again? I would love to read it. - joygogo, Dec 5, 2013

Hola, Kiwi-Girl. After reading your answer many times, l would like to tell you that your explanation is excellent though your viewpoint about the subject of the sentence is different from that of the article l found. - joygogo, Dec 5, 2013

Yours is easier for me to understand and its usage is like “gustar”. Thank you very much. - joygogo, Dec 5, 2013

Finally, the link works! But it is written in all Spanish. Plus, it is too long and too difficult for me to read. Where else can l find something easier to read? Por favor! - joygogo, Dec 5, 2013

Hi Joygogo, thanks for your comments, I'm afraid it's hard to find English grammar books that explain things like this very well :(. Bug if I find anything I'll let u know. - Kiwi-Girl, Dec 5, 2013

Ups, that is 'but' ;) - Kiwi-Girl, Dec 5, 2013

Answer 6

I think Rogpax's answer is the clearest as to why both se and me are present and the verb is in the third person singular present tense form.

Thanks, Jublilado. Please click this question again and read my feedback. - joygogo, Dec 5, 2013

Answer 7

The intransitive counterpart to a transitive verb will be expressed by the use of the participle se. Such constructions may also include an indirect object if one wishes to indicate that someone was indirectly affected by the action of the verb.

Se me abrió la maleta.

The suitcase opened up on me.

Found this in ' Español Contemporáneo' by George De Mello

Thank you! But where did you find it? Could you give me the link? - joygogo, Dec 5, 2013

Answer 8

Hi Joy

By accident, I think I found the key article which seems to be the answer to my question. Spanish Reflexive Pronoun Se with Unplanned Occurrences http://www.elearnspanishlanguage.com/grammar/verb/accidentalreflexive.html

Yes Joy, that is exactly what I was trying to illustrate with my examples, and when using the term unintended (or unplanned) actions (or occurences).

First, I´ll say, that is just something you have to accept as a common mindeset (a way to think about things) in Spanish, that we don´t always have in English. It´s a bit like a passive voice way of thinking about something and expressing it that makes it seem less like your fault. We do it a bit in English too.

I made mistakes (active voice)

Mistakes were made (passive voice) The speaker is just saying mistakes were made, but not saying you. In English, this is yes or no, one or the other.

But Spanish, has this interesting intermediate way of expressing things, where the speaker is identified via the direct object pronoun (¨me¨ in the below), but is not actively doing the action (the glass (vaso) is doing the action - it´s not your fault, the glass just kind of chose to leap out of your hand)

Se me cayó el vaso. The glass fell from my hand. We might say ¨The glass just fell¨ .

This is versus. .

I dropped the glass.

Dejé caer el vaso. (really more like I let if fall, but that´s as close as they get to drop)

Also, look at Annies example and explanation. It´s short, but very good, and gives a relatively rare example of when we do this in English too.

It didn´t occur to me. No lo me ocurrió

Notice how it´s passive voice. In other words, You (or I, or whoever) is not doing the ocurring. It is ocurring to us

So, before trying to understand that various explanations you received, which come at it from different angles and with different terminology, but are mostly the same, I think you have to back up a step and get used to, and develop a real feel and understanding for these unplanned events, and how they are expressed with this construction. I think you´re on the right track with the article you found. Then, this will make more sense.

The more technical articles with generalize and cover these scenarios, and more, under the more general category double pronomials, but if for now, you just get a better feel for the unplanned occurrences stuff, you´ll be 95% there.

Oh, and yes, olvidar I usually see as one of those ¨de¨ verbs when followed by an infinitive verb (but I think maybe not when followed by a noun, not sure about that.)

To forget to return to the book -- Olvidar de devolver el libro.

I forgot to wear my glasses -- Olvidé de llevar mis gafas

or more commonly, as we just discussed (i.e. it is optional, but actually more common)

Se me olvidó de llevar mis gafas.

But with a noun instead of a verb, without ¨de¨

From here on SpanishDict

olvidé las llaves en la oficina -> I left my keys at the office

hth roger

To my surprise, you spent so much time giving me more detailed explanation and good advice. It's really nice of you to do so. I admire your serious attitude toward my questions and spare no effort to help me. Discussing Qs with you is an enjoyment. - joygogo, Dec 6, 2013

By the way, since I just began to learn this new sentence pattern, I need to read the example sentences you gave me many times in order to digest them well. If I have futher questions, may I let you know? - joygogo, Dec 6, 2013

Of course. But I think your approach is a good one. Some just absorb, and some need explanation. I need an explanation, followed by MaNY examples to learn well. If my text had more examples, I could learn more quickly. - rogspax, Dec 7, 2013

And if only you could be at one or two parties overflowing with countless Mexican children. Children are always dropping and losing things, and they learn this construct VeRY early in their lives. I sometimes think their first two words are "se me..." - rogspax, Dec 7, 2013

Frankly, beside the various verb conjugations, the usage of "se" is the most difficult and confusing for me. - joygogo, Dec 8, 2013

How I wish I could meet any Mexican child or adult in my neighborhood or city, but the possibility is zero. - joygogo, Dec 8, 2013

Answer 9

I am glad you finally found the theory or source that can help you the most, joygogo. Next time I promise to recheck the page content before suggesting something. And as you said, Me escapó de... is not correct Spanish, that needs the pronoun se at the beginning as in Se me escapó... sorry for that.

Grammar is serious stuff haha. =)

Gloria, it's I that should say "Thank you" to you. You are a sweet angel. Spanish grammar makes my head ache, too. - joygogo, Dec 6, 2013

It's serious but fun. - rogspax, Dec 7, 2013

Answer 10

I think you are getting confused,the no se part of the statement means i dont know.Se is first person singular of saber, to know.

If this was true, it would be "sé", with a tilde. I don't think that explanation works in this case. - Noetol, Dec 4, 2013

Right noetel. Definitely not from Saber. And this is why some of my native friends´slack use of those marks make their posts very difficult sometimes. Ugh! - rogspax, Dec 5, 2013

Thank you for the reply. - joygogo, Dec 5, 2013