Subjunctive explanations - MG

Question

Hi all.

This is the first time I have posted, and although this type of Q might be in a previous post I would like some feedback on the reasoning why the following are in the sujunctive. I have used a book on the subjunctive and it has been really good in some aspects and vague in others. This was an example sentence.

1. El dependiente de la tienda salió después de que su jefe contara el dinero.

The verb was listed as as contara and I had put it as contó. I have no idea why contara would be used as it seems to be stating a fact/completed action.

1. Arreglaron el modelo de modo que se viera más realista.

This was an example but I am unsure why it is in the subjunctive. I think it means - they fixed the model so that it would look more realistic.

Thanks for your help, Michael

Michael, Please let us know your language levels: English - Fluent (?), Spanish - ??. Do this by editing your profile. You can add other narrative about your interest and uses of Spanish. - Jubilado, Sep 15, 2013

Answer 1

Well, you know that subjunctive tense is maddening - that's not new. There are many situations where the subjunctive must or might be used. I'm not a linguist but I'll try to shed some light on your examples.

• El dependiente de la tienda salió después de que su jefe contara el dinero.

When I saw your question I did a little research and I found a document about the forms and uses of the subjunctive. I uploaded it to MEGA. Here.

On page number 4 under the title "Tras determinadas conjunciones" (After certain conjunctions), you'll find the conjunction "después de" in the second table which title is "Conjunciones con subjuntivo o infinitivo dependiendo de los sujetos" (Conjunctions with subjunctive or infinitive depending on the subjects).

What do we find? We have 2 clauses with 2 different subjects: "el dependiente" (the clerk) and "su jefe" (his boss). As you can see, the rule states that the subjunctive tense must be used; specifically the imperfect form (in your example) because it's a past action.

If the clerk counted the money himself (only one subject) indicative tense could be used with the verb contar in infinitive form:

• El dependiente de la tienda salió después de contar el dinero.

As for your second example, your translation is good:

• Arreglaron el modelo de modo que se viera más realista. - They fixed the model so that it would look more realistic.

I think that the same rule applies to that example. Two clauses, different subjects (they / it). What do you think?

Greetings.

Nice job :) - Kiwi-Girl, Sep 14, 2013

Great Amigo - but for me it is still as clear as mud. - ian-hill, Sep 15, 2013

How on earth am I supposed to remember that when I am talking? :) - ian-hill, Sep 15, 2013

Practice + Repetition and Practice + Repetition. And... - 00483d91, Sep 15, 2013

Subjunctive is the monster under the bed-I have never found an explanation that is clear to me--my wife says I use it even without knowing that i do - pacofinkler, Sep 15, 2013

Answer 2

Just to add a little extra, this is one of those grammatical points that not even the experts agree on.

Some grammarians such as Manuel Seco, past member of RAE, maintain that a real past event following despues de que should be expressed with the indicative and not the subjunctive.

But it seems that to the ears of most Spanish speaking people the subjunctive just sounds better. Maybe because they are used to always having to use the subjunctive after antes de que.

I'm not sure what level your Spanish is at but you may find [this reference][1] interesting.

[1]: http://www.hispanoteca.eu/Foro-preguntas/ARCHIVO-Foro/después de que y subjuntivo.htm

That's right. It just feels better because that's the way I used it all my life. - 00483d91, Sep 14, 2013

That is the "trick" - use it for 50 or so years. :) - ian-hill, Sep 15, 2013

Answer 3

As the above started, these are several conjunctions that require the subjunctive after them, but ONLY when the subject of the main clause and the subject of the subordinate clause are DIFFERENT.

After "de" or any other preposition, the verb will NOT have a subject and it will be infinitive. After "de que" in referring to the past or present, the verb will be past or present subjunctive.

Some conjunctions that this happens with are:

Con tal de que (as long as) Para que (so that, in order to) Despues de que (after) Al menos que (as long as) Al fin de que

The idea is that one thing happens or happened (fact) but depended on or promoted a separate action that has a SEPARATE subject (subjunctive). .

Yo corrí mucho para Bajar de peso. -- I didn't change subjects, so I used después de + infinitive

Ella corrió mucho para que yo me animara. -- here, the subject of the main clause does the running so that another person gets motivated.

Answer 4

Thanks Kiwi-Girl. I did think after I'd sent that, that I'd been too simplistic with my response about the subjects but thanks for your extra piece. The first example in my original query below still seems to be wrong; however as you have said seems better to native ears

1.El dependiente de la tienda salió después de que su jefe contara el dinero.

The second one makes a bit more sense as I suppose they are anticipating it looking more realistic.

1.Arreglaron el modelo de modo que se viera más realista.

Exactly, well done :) - Kiwi-Girl, Sep 17, 2013

Answer 5

I think the answer to the questions was that they are different subjects. Greg

I don't think that it's quite that simple Greg because look at a sentence with a similar construction but in the present tense ...

Siempre lloro después de que la película termina. I always cry after the movie ends.

Two different subjects, separated by después de que but using the indicative.

Look at this reference work referring to adverbial subjunctions such as después de :

Adverbial conjunctions of time:

The following adverbial conjunctions deal with time, and are followed by the subjunctive when they introduce an anticipated situation. If they introduce one which is viewed as completed or habitual, they are followed by the indicative. Of course, if there is no change of subject involved and a preposition is available, typically the preposition is used with an infinitive.

So if you're looking for logic to understand why your sentence uses the subjunctive I don't think it's really there as it really defies the grammatical rule, it's just that in the past tense at least the subjunctive after después de sounds better to native ears.

Answer 6

Thanks everybody. My understanding is quite a high level know. I can read a newspaper and understand what has happened, but in some cases (like the above) get confused in use. I think the answer to the questions was that they are different subjects. The problem was that the chapters are split into learning in my book and I had forgotten that when two different subjects are involved the clause often becomes the subjunctive.