Help With Grammar, "Must have thought~"

Question

I was writing when I got stuck on an expression.

"The Mayans must have thought that all humans would have died out by now."

This is my attempt...

=> Los Mayas debían de pensar que toda la humanidad ahora ya habría terminado.

How would you say it?

Thanks!

I forgot to say that this is a very good question - and that it confuses me too. - Why o why does Spanish not have Modals? - ian-hill, Sep 2, 2013

They might well wonder why we *DO* :) - rogspax, Sep 11, 2013

Answer 1

One way to express a supposition is to use the construction:

"deber + de + infinitive" An example in each tense would be:

Present Tense: "Deben de ser las ocho" "It must be 8 o'clock"

Imperfect: "Esta ruina debía de ser una casa impresionante" "This ruin must have been an impressive house"

Preterite: "Los niños debieron de llegar tarde a la escuela" "The children must have arrived late to school"

Since your Mayans were surmising at an undefined time, I would say that your "debían de pensar" is correct.

Cheers

Answer 2

My guess:

Los Mayas debieron de haber pensado que toda la humanidad se habría extinguido ya/a estas alturas.

My thought process:

1. They think = Ellos piensan.
2. They have thought = Ellos han pensado.
3. They must (present) = Ellos deben.
4. They must (preterite) = Ellos debieron.
5. They must have thought = Ellos debieron de haber pensado.

Maybe someone fluent in both languages (or anyone else) can confirm that. I hope this helps.

EDIT: I've read the other answers and the more I research, the more unsure I am about this because the strict translation of the conjugation 'they must have thought' seems to be different to what Spanish learners are taught when they have to translate it. (debían + de + infinitive). So:

Los mayas debían/debieron de pensar que toda la humanidad se habría extinguido ya/a estas alturas.

Seems to be the better option, by now.

[Feel free to correct my English. Thank you]

I go with your "guess" none of the others express "must HAVE thought". - gringojrf, Sep 2, 2013

I'm sticking with your initial response but without the "de" before haber. - gringojrf, Sep 2, 2013

Slight correction amigo - ........... what Spanish learners are taught when .......... - ian-hill, Sep 2, 2013

Thanks Ian - 003492fc, Sep 2, 2013

Could anyone explain why you would consider the initial response to be better than the second? - 0068f249, Sep 2, 2013

I builded the first one because It would be (for me) the most direct/strict translation. But since I am not fluent in English I do not want to confuse anyone by contradicting a rule that appears to work just fine for the Spanish learners. - 003492fc, Sep 3, 2013

(built) ;) - Kiwi-Girl, Sep 11, 2013

Answer 3

Los Mayas debían pensar que toda la humanidad desaparesiera (past subjunctive of desaparecer - to become extinct).

I think you are correct Jubilado - but what do I know :) - ian-hill, Sep 2, 2013

But why isn't there a 'de' in front of the 'pensar'? Wouldn't that suggest that the Mayans had an obligation to think that way? - 0068f249, Sep 2, 2013

I don't think they had an obligation but rather they had a belief based on something that is quite obscure to us. - ian-hill, Sep 2, 2013

@ Felixe see post below ... :) - Kiwi-Girl, Sep 11, 2013

Answer 4

Except in short answers or question, all modals are followed by a base verb (the infintive without "to")

Short answer - I would. -- Short question - Would you?

"They must think ............." is in the present.

If the modal is followed by "have" and then the past participle

"They must have thought .............." then it is in the past.

There are no exceptions to rules for using modals.

So the modal (in English) is "must have thought" so it is past tense. But what is the Spanish equivalent? - gringojrf, Sep 2, 2013

Thank you Ian. - 003492fc, Sep 3, 2013

What is the Spanish equivalent? That is T H E question - often the Spanish speakers can't tell us. - ian-hill, Sep 3, 2013

Answer 5

But why isn't there a 'de' in front of the 'pensar'? Wouldn't that suggest that the Mayans had an obligation to think that way? - Felixestadur

Technically you're spot on Felix, deber + inf = obligation and deber de + infinitive = possibility, assumption, conjecture etc.

Having said that I think it's becoming more and more accepted in speech and even sometimes in writing to just use deber for both meanings.

Correct - padrin, Sep 13, 2013