Is 'se' used reflexively in this sentence from Rosetta Stone?

Question

Se me derramó el café sobre la tarea.

Answer 1

Se me derramó el café sobre la tarea.

Because "derramar" is transitive, passive voice can be assumed here. The "me" however indicates that the narrator is affected by the action (he is surprised, it´s his coffee, etc). The coffee is not spilled on him but only on the homework.

Excellent! Thanks, Julian. - --Mariana--, Mar 26, 2013

Answer 2

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Answer 3

I have to disagree with this:

Which means the person speaking "me" spilled the café, but is attempting avoid any culpability for it, and as Julian said, it shows "surprise" in a way as it is crazy to think that café could spill itself.

Many people interpret this passive structure this way and I think that this view point is incorrect. Let me explain why I disagree.

This same passive structure exists in English. Imagine two people having breakfast at home:

1. Person A: Crap!
2. Person B: What's wrong?
3. Person A: The coffee spilled.
4. Person B: What happened?
5. Person A: I knocked the cup over while I was reaching for the salt.

Now in Spanish:

1. Person A: Caray!
2. Person B: Que tienes?
3. Person A: Se me derramó el café .
4. Person B: Qué pasó?
5. Person A: Me derramé la taz intentando alcanzar la sal.

The coffee spilled = Se me derramó el café

In this situation as native English speakers we would not jump to the conclusion that on Person A is trying to imply it wasn't their fault based only on the use of the passive sentence "the coffee spilled". Nor do I believe any Spanish speaker would say the same about the corresponding structure in Spanish.

My point here is that the usage of the passage voice in situations like that this has nothing to do with an attempt to avoid the blame. It's simply a way speaking, nothing more, nothing less. Whether or not a person is tryiing to aviod the blame can only be determined through additional questioning.

Answer 4

I think the use of "se" here means it is passive voice. The coffee can't do the action of spilling itself, it got spilled [on me].

Literally translated: The coffee was spilled on me (and consequently over all the homework). ??? Anyone else know?

Okay, maybe it's more like, 'I spilt the coffee myself on the homework.' Does that make sense editorkt? - spandy29, Mar 25, 2013

Yea, maybe it is "The coffee was spilled by me over the homework." Since the verb ends in 3rd person, the subject of the sentence is the coffee, so passive voice. (I think!) - editorkt, Mar 25, 2013

The picture shows a person holding a paper dripping with coffee, and it is he who is stating the sentence, if that helps. Good idea anyway. - spandy29, Mar 25, 2013

I sort of think it could be reflexive too editorkt , maybe someone will straighten it out. - spandy29, Mar 25, 2013

Answer 5

This is the "accidental" use of se. It works almost the same as the passive se, except it includes an indirect object pronoun.

I suppose you could say it is also reflexive, since the subject and the direct object are the same.

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Let's analyze the sentence:

"Se me derramó el café sobre la tarea."

Se + pronoun + third person singular verb + noun/direct object + prepositional phrase.

Derramar requires a direct object that can be spilled, in this case café. So we know "me" can't refer to a direct object. Thus "me" is an indirect object.

Se used with an indirect object can not be a passive construction as the "passive se" must necessarily lack an indirect object.

Thus it must be the accidental use of "se."

Which means the person speaking "me" spilled the café, but is attempting avoid any culpability for it, and as Julian said, it shows "surprise" in a way as it is crazy to think that café could spill itself.

Answer 6

For example, "The coffee was spilled." --Who did it? --I don't know. The inclusion of "me" clues us in.

The inclusion of me is not a "clue" as to who is responsible but as to who is affected.

IE: I don´t want my girlfriend to have her hair cut: "No te vayas a cortar el pelo" but if I emphasize that I am the one who doesn´t want this to happen: "No te me vayas a cortar el pelo." "Me" has nothing to do with who will be responsible for the cutting of hair.

Answer 7

Okay, I looked it up in my "1001 Pitfalls in Spanish" book, and this case falls under "False passive", or "The Reflexive 'se' Substitute for Passive Voice". True passive voice requires an agent to act upon a subject. For example, The coffee was spilled by me. This example would use the verb "to be" and then "by me". "False passive" is when no agent is expressed as doing the action, even though the inclusion of "me" does identify the subject. A reflexive construction can be used when no agent is expressed as doing the action. The reason why no agent would be expressed can sometimes be to avoid blame or sometimes because no one knows who did it. For example, "The coffee was spilled." --Who did it? --I don't know. The inclusion of "me" clues us in.

Fun thread, and I enjoyed the dialogue above!

Answer 8

I have a question.......is rosetta stone better than spanish dictionary? Which of them is more benifical than the other?

Rosetta Stone seems to take you through lessons in an intelligent chronological order, but if you don't stop and learn what you do not understand, you won't magically become immersed. - spandy29, Mar 25, 2013