Subjunctive lesson - need help understanding one slide

Question

Hi, I´m doing one of the lessons suggested to me, and can´t quite make out what this slide (it´s in a powerpoint-like format) means. Neither this use of the word matriz, nor the entire thing. Can anyone help me here?

Si puedes cambiar la matriz que quieres usar por ¨afirmar¨ o ¨suponer¨ en la persona adecuada, entonces necesitas el indicativo. En caso contrario, el subjuntivo.

Muchas gracias a todos.

I wonder if in this case it could be something like 'the parent' clause'? - Kiwi-Girl, Jan 20, 2013

Could be, I need to think about it more. But my engineering background made me automatically think of a ´stub´ as a relatively short or limited segment, and thus without further thought, I´d assumed subordinate clause. Of course, that may not be right. - rogspax, Jan 20, 2013

Answer 1

I have seen that slide show. I agree with you, the usage of la matriz is very hard to understand for me as well. In this context, I think "matriz" means "stub," or a section of the sentence. To be specific, in a sentence like:

Me alegro de que vengas a mi fiesta. The bold part is the "matriz," the stub, maybe he even mean the "main clause."

Si puedes cambiar la matriz que quieres usar por ¨afirmar¨ o ¨suponer¨ en la persona adecuada, entonces necesitas el indicativo. En caso contrario, el subjuntivo.

If you can replace the "stub" you want to use with "afirmar" or "suponer" in the proper conjugation according to the person (i.e. the subject), then you need the indicative (in the clause following que). Otherwise, use subjective.

In the example I gave: Me alegro de que vengas a mi fiesta. Can I replace "Me alegro de" with "suponer"? In other words, do "I suppose you come to my party" has the same meaning as "I'm glad you come to my party." The answer is NO. So I cannot replace the "stub" with "suponer," so I cannot use indicative in the que-clause, I have to use subjective.

I like another PPT better, because it is easier for me to understand. It is the PPT at the bottom of this page. Either it is written by the same guy or by the same school of thoughts.

Perfect explanation, Jasmin! :) - cogumela, Jan 20, 2013

Thanks Jasmine. I'll be checking your link out too. Appreciate your always great answers. Wish I was as far along as you. - rogspax, Jan 21, 2013

Answer 2

In my opinion, coming up with relatively new jargon such as matrix clauses and embedded clauses is an unnecessary complication. There are some for whom obscure complexity is like a flame to a moth. I think that "rules" have a place but it is conversation and reading that generates the "music of the language" where a wrong note jars on the ear. There are so many cases where the subjunctive is at the speaker's choice depending on the desired nuance, that in-depth navel gazing about matrices and embedded clauses is counter-productive. Anyway, it's a point of view for what it's worth.

Answer 3

Yes, it's as Jasmine pointed out. The matriz is the main clause [which contains the subordinate clause]

Let's say in Spanish:

I want [you to come]

The matriz is:

Quiero que...

We want to add tú + venir (you to come). Which mood should we use?

Pause.

Let's remember that indicative in Spanish implies that you think or believe, or guess, or suppose what's in brackets.

[que vienes] --> I think you come

[que vengas] --> you to come

So, in indicative:

I want [I think you come]

Big contradiction. How can I think that you are coming and wanting it at the same time? What's the point in desiring something that I believe it's already happening?

and in subjunctive:

I want [you to come].

I want something (and this something is that you to come)

And thanks for yours too Cogumela. They're also always great. It's slowly moving in the right direction with all your help. - rogspax, Jan 21, 2013

Answer 4

Rog, see the site "grammar.about.com". I googled "grammar, matriz" and the second site as mentioned has a run down on the term "matriz". Good luck

Thanks very much. I looked on about 3 sites yesterday, but was looking from my phone, a bit limiting, and found nothing applicable. Yours fits perfect. Thanks. - rogspax, Jan 21, 2013

Answer 5

Thanks, i Will read that All over tommorrow on a screen bigger thaan my Phone tomorrow.

In the mean time, I Will say i had chosen the definition "stub" and provisionally decided it was in this case synomynous with Clause (clausula). Or maybe "segment"

Answer 6

Interesting, so, after reading Padrin's helpful article reference, I just thought I'd share a bit on the matrix. Turns out it's neither the main clause, nor the subordinate clause, but both together.

It is a way of viewing the main clause, and the embedded-within subordinate clause as one unit. In some cases, that might be the whole sentence. In others, the whole matrix could be itself a sub-clause of a larger matrix. Very interesting. I had not only a lot of German and a bit of Swedish and Finnish formally, but some linguistics courses in college, many years ago, and had still never seen that term. It's apparently a relatively new thing among linguists.

Anyway, that slideshow makes more sense now.

Thanks all for helping. I'm finally off to go look at Jasmine's recommendation now, after having just finished off Kiwi's.

cheers

Roger