Rogspax question

Question

So, can we say in general, that Pienso que and Creo que will require the indicative, but that No creo que and No pienso que will use the subjunctive?

Yes - avispao, Jan 20, 2013

Answer 1

Good on you guys you're certainly putting a lot of effort into getting your head around this tema peliaguda jeje.

Kyle - you've got it spot on with creer. Creer que declares, so it takes the indicative, no creer que is followed by something you can't declare because you don't believe it to be so, so it takes the subjunctive.

The 'no creer' version is easier to understand if you reverse the English equivalent.

If you reverse - I don't believe he's coming. to say ... He's coming I don't believe.

I'm not sure if this will make sense to you (hopefully it wont confuse matters) but can you hear how the first half 'he's coming' sounds like a declaration? and then the second half, I don't belive' sounds like a denial? They just don't fit together and that's how it would sound to a Spanish speaker if you used the indicative with 'no creer' - on the one hand you're declaring something then on the other you're denying it to be true, it just sounds weird.

And don't forget the one time that you can see 'creer' followed by the subjunctive is when used as a question:

¿Crees que Juan esté en casa? Do you think that John's at home?

And now you Rog - I think you're getting a bit confused. While it's true that verbs of doubt and negation (negar, dudar, no ser verdad, no estar cierto, no creer etc) that require the subjunctive in subordinate clauses will often take the indicative in their negative form.

Niegas que yo pueda hacerlo? Do you deny that I can do it?

No niega que yo puedo hacerlo. He doesn't deny that I can do it.

but unless I'm mistaken I don't thank that your theory will work for all the examples you've given.

Eg. 'Es posible' expresses uncertainty and 'no es posible' is a denial so both need the subjunctive. You can't declare and deny something in the same sentence.

Es and no es importante, bueno, malo etc all express subjectivity, ie. your opinion so they all take the subjunctive.

I hope that helps.

Confused, yes, a little, but I was mostly posing that part of the question to test my understanding. And to figure out which ones change between Ind/Subj when going Yes/No, and if some remain subjunctive either way. Which you've clarified they do. Thanx - rogspax, Jan 21, 2013

Well done, you'll get there :) - Kiwi-Girl, Jan 21, 2013

Answer 2

Subjunctive has nothing to do with uncertainly. To use words like "uncertainly" in the context of subjunctive/indicative discussion is like describing the appearance, but not the essence. When deciding the mood, analyzing "uncertainly" is not always wrong, but the problem is, it will not always give you the right answer, either.

Read this PPT at the bottom of this page. It only takes you 5-10 min, and it will save you lots of pain on indicative/subjunctive decisions. I spent over a year asking tons of questions on subjunctive/indicative, and finally, this PPT cracked my thick skull on this topic.

Answer 3

can we further generalize and about opposites (positives and negatives) saying that one >of them is indicative, then the other is likely subjunctive - Rog

This only works with verbs of doubt or negation:

Dudamos que vengan. We doubt they'll come. (subj)

but

No dudamos que vienen. We don't doubt they're coming. (indic)

Creo que salen bien. I think they'll do well. (indic)

but

No creo que salgan bien. I don't think they'll do well. (subj)

Got it, thanks! - rogspax, Jan 21, 2013

:) - Kiwi-Girl, Jan 21, 2013

Answer 4

Thanks Kyle. Sounds like we´re working pretty much in parallel on the subjunctive, though from the passages you post questions about, I´d say you´re ahead of me in this game overall.

Continuing and clarifying in this vein, can we further generalize and about opposites (positives and negatives) saying that one of them is indicative, then the other is likely subjunctive (and yes, I know there will be exceptions, and I¨ll worry more about those after I tackle the basics)

i.e.

Es posible que... Subj. No es posible que... Ind.

Es seguro que... Ind. No es seguro que... Subj.

Es dudoso que... Subj. No es dudoso que... Ind.

And regardless, what about ones that appear, at least to me, more ambiguous?

Es probable que. No es probable que.

Es importante que. No es importante que.

etc etc.

Thanks to all helping us!

Es posible que... Subj. No es posible que... Subj. The option with/without "no" does not always "toggle" the mood ;-). - JazSpanish, Jan 20, 2013

Thanks. Beginning to see that now, though this one now seems clear-ish. I wonder about probable. - rogspax, Jan 21, 2013

Answer 5

I wonder about probable. - Rog

Same dealio, (no) es probable + subj - if you try to think about 'the indicative' allowing you to declare something that is a fact or you believe to be a fact and 'the subjunctive' for everything else it should get easier.

As soon as you say 'es probable' or 'no es probable' can you hear that you're doing something other than declaring a fact or something you perceive as a definite fact? You're allowing doubt in and it's the subjunctive that allows you to express that doubt.