No regular subjunctive there... accept it, next subject...
This is a key note about the subjunctive as part of the subjunctive excercises. Upon translating the song, which shows you the subjunctive for a "wanting" -negative or positive- (no quiero que la duda te haga llorar), I noticed another very basic thing to remember (which is a simple thing to remember). Don't think too hard about it, accept it and move forward.
There are two types of subjunctives that are used daily. The regular subjunctive.... and the imperfect subjunctive.
The regular subjunctive isn't used after "si" as showcased below.
[morir] Si te mueres primero = If you die first
[morir] Si me muero primero = If I die first
[entristecerse] Si te entristeces = If you sadden
[amar] Si los muertos aman = If the dead love
This is where that "doubt" thing kicks people in the shin, because although there is doubt above (since the word "if" is being used, I obviously don't know for sure) It doesn't matter. You never use the regular subjunctive after si.
If you come to the party you will have fun
Si vienes a la fiesta, la pasarás bien.
If you know who did it, tell me
Si sabes quien lo hizo, dime.
Nothing special to remember, nothing to figure out, nothing to analyze... don't use the regular subjunctive after "si."
6 Answers
Thanks. Very useful. So that one is a never.
And we alsways use subjunctive after ´cuando´?
Regardless of the old ´doubt´ over-simplification, right?
Hello, avispao,
First of all, congrats for the great work you're doing on the subjunctive. It's a tough one, so I really appreciate your generosity on this one.
I have a couple of comments on your examples:
[entristecerse] Si tú entristeces = If you sadden
This is not a good Spanish sentence. Entristecer means "causar tristeza". Entristecerse means "to sadden".
[amar] Si los muertos aman = If the dead love
This sentence is grammatically flawless, but I dare saying that a Spanish speaker would link the words "Si los muertos....." to imperfect subjunctive in the 99,99% of the cases. The reason is that usually the dead don't do too many things. The only context I can think of in which this sentence would make sense is in a zombies film.
I hope not to sound too picky on this.
Avispao said:
You never use the regular subjunctive after si.
I think it'd be clearer to say ".....the present subjunctive after "si."
Rogspax said:
And we alsways use subjunctive after ´cuando´?
Not quite. We only use the subjunctive after "cuando" when we are talking about an event that will happen in the future.
Siempre tomo café cuando llego a casa (indicative because it's something that I do regularly).
Llámame cuando llegues a casa (subjunctive because you haven't arrived home yet).
As a few of you may have noticed, the subjunctive is one of my favourite subjects when it comes to Spanish jeje. Of course as I"m not a native speaker I still can't always use the subjunctive intuitively like even very young Spanish speakers seem to be able to do but here's my 2 cents for what it's worth ....
Ok as a general rule and a place to start you can say 'si isn't followed by the present subjunctive' - but as they say, 'never say never'
WHEN TO BREAK THE RULES
After receiving some helpful information from some generous native speakers here are some thoughts on where you might find the present subjuntive following 'si'.
1) Especially with negative 'si' clauses (such as - no sé si ... ) I'm told you would be more likely to hear native speakers use the present subjunctive when the 'si' takes on the meaning of 'whether' more than 'if' .
The subjunctive is optional in such cases and is more pessimistic than the indicative:
eg: No sé si él esté en casa. I don't know whether he'll be at home. (but I doubt he will)
Here are some other negative examples (along with the positive variation using the present indicative tense) these were kindly provided by a native speaker:
No sé si vaya a la fiesta, no sé si deba ir a la fiesta Positive: Luego te digo si voy a la fiesta. Decidiré si debo ir a la fiesta.
No sé si sea lo mejor - no sé si esto es lo mejor Positive: Decide si es lo mejor para ti. Ya veremos si eso es lo mejor.
No sé si quiera conocerle - no sé si quiero conocerle Positive: Espero el reporte para decidir si quiero conocerle
2) The present tense subjunctive is used after 'si' quite often to speak of the future, ie: "I don´t know if she is going or not" ...... "No sé si vaya o no." The meaning of the subordinate clause is future, but the verb is conjugated in present tense.
Have you started to see a pattern here for when you might see 'si' followed by 'the present subjunctive'? Yes, all of these examples involve the verb 'saber' and expressions of negation or doubt.
But remember the subjunctive here is optional, the present or future indicative will likely be an equally valid option:
No sé si vengan (vendrán, vienen) Jose y María.
I don't know if Jose and Maria will come.
¿Quién sabe si tales cosas siquiera existen (existan).
Who knows if such things even exist.
Hola, Rog.
And we always use subjunctive after ´cuando´?
Regardless of the old ´doubt´ over-simplification, right?
That entire "doubt" thing is more vague than incorrect, and also there are more reasons to use the subjunctive. It's not as looming and evil as it seems... the subjunctive is used often enough based on what YOU want to express.... and I've come to think of the regular/present subjunctive as another future tense in a wide many of it's general uses. I'll create a thread about that maybe tomorrow and I'll be using quotes from the book I'm reading so you all can link what is being said with the subjunctive.
Stop thinking about it like math, it's words... meant for communicating thoughts... I think "triggers" is a bit intimidating.... it's a bit more simple than that... at least in many cases... it's just about KNOWING WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY... and KNOWING THE DIFFERENCE in what you're saying when you use the subjunctive, and when you don't... because there are many times where you can choose to use the subjunctive or the indicative based on what you want to express, so I think it's better to think about what you want to express, and the differences amongst the few chooses, instead of what seems like an endless list of "triggers." Let's all enjoy this. Native Spanish speakers, pitch in please.
Hola Cogu,
"This is not a good Spanish sentence."
[entristecerse] Si tú entristeces = If you sadden
Un error mío.... escribí "entristecerse" pero se me fue el santo al cielo... y en vez de usar "se" en la oración (en este caso "te" ...si te entristeces) usé "tú"
PERO.... la letra sí dice "Si tú entristeces" ...así que me equivoqué con la elección del verbo.
En cuanto a "si los muertos aman" ...
Escribiste
I dare saying that a Spanish speaker would link the words "Si los muertos....." to imperfect subjunctive in the 99,99% of the cases. The reason is that usually the dead don't do too many things.
Lo que escribí es de una canción y el cantante ecuatoriano lo dice.... para decir que... si los muertos sí aman (de cualquier manera) ....se amarán más después de morrirse... Hablando del subjuntivo... si nosotros usaramos el subjuntivo imperfecto en esa oración... el significado cambiaría totalmente (como bien sabes)
Si los muertos aman, después de muertos amarnos más = If the dead love (no sabemos, pero vamos a saber si es así tarde o temprano) we will love eachother after we die (como zombies.... o espíritus.... o lo que sea)
Vs.
Si los muertos amaran = if the dead loved (pero sabemos que no lo hacen) depués de muertos nos amarían más
Un buen tema relacionado al uso del subjuntivo, gracias.
