Gustar/repugnar and transitivity - conflicting dictionaries
Oh really, another 'gustar' post? But actually, I can't find my questions treated anywhere else, so here we go...
Most of this probably boils down to understanding the concept of transitivity.
First some abbreviations:
DOP - Direct Object Pronoun
IOP - Indirect Object Pronoun
SD - SpanishDict
DRAE - Diccionario de la Real Academia Española [1]
[#] - Denotes a weblink at the bottom of this post.
Here are two classic examples of the intransitive usage of gustar:
Me gusta la torta - I like the cake (it's pleasing to me, the cake)
or alternatively:
La torta me gusta - I like the cake (the cake is pleasing to me)
We have 'torta' as the subject and 'me' as the indirect object pronoun (IOP).
1) My first question is: What is the grammatical justification for calling the above an 'intransitive' usage? Is it just intransitive simply because we happen to use the IOPs or can we explain why we use the IOPs and not the DOPs?
The way I see it you might as well consider it a transitive usage with 'me' actually being a direct object pronoun (which of course would mean that we would be using the DOP-pronouns for the third person singular/plural as well - the only ones that differ from the IOPs).
Is it because we have an implied preposition "a"? (and then it's by definition an IOP):
A mí me gusta la torta
La torta me gusta a mí
Repugnar is listed here on SD as another verb that works like 'gustar'. [2]
Here are some analog examples for 'repugnar':
me repugna ese olor
or alternatively:
ese olor me repugna
In fact, exactly these examples are used in both DRAE and two of the dictionaries in SD (Chambers Harrap & Collins). In DRAE everything works out fine as the examples are listed under the intransitive usage of the verb [3]. However, this is not the case for the two SD dictionaries. Here they're listed under the transitive usage.
2) What's going on? Erroneous SD dictionaries?
Collins also lists this sentence under the transitive usage:
siempre ha repugnado el engaño - (he's) always hated deceit
Now, this is just fine with me as él, la or usted is the (not explicitly given) subject and 'engaño' is directly acted upon by the verb. Just the way it is supposed to work in a transitive construction.
'Gustar' can also be used transitively:
Gusto el ron en el mojito - I taste the rum in the mojito
I'm of the impression that this is a fairly rarely used gustar construction whereas the transitive constructions are much more common. Also, the verb 'repugnar' does not have different meanings in the transitive and intransitive forms. 'Gustar' changes meaning from 'being likable' in the intransitve to 'tasting' or 'trying' in the transitive.
3) Is it correct that the transitive usage of 'repugnar' also is much less prevalent than the intransitive one?
Looking through some Linguee [5] sentences found using searches for 'repugnar', 'repugna' and 'repugnaba' I only found very few transitive examples:
"Ésta es [Norteamérica] y no repugnamos el éxito de una empresa cuando su éxito se basa en relaciones honestas con sus clientes", declaró Obama.
"This is America and we don't begrudge a company's success when that success is based on honest dealings with consumers,'' Obama said.
Very nice! Structured just as the transitive example from Collins given above. However, I also found:
"Señor Presidente, la discriminación, en cualquiera de las caras que pueda mostrar, repugna nuestra forma de entender la convivencia y socava uno de los principios rectores de la Unión, el de la igualdad de trato."
"(ES) Mr President, discrimination, in any of its guises, deeply offends our sense of co-existence and undermines one of the guiding principles of the Union, that of equality of treatment."
Here it is "la discriminación" which is repugnant to "nuestra forma de entender la convivencia". But the sentence is structured just as the example before where it was just the opposite! Here follows the sentences shortened and changed a bit for clarity (note: in the first sentence the negative is removed):
Nosotros repugnamos el éxito. ('nosotros' is finding 'éxito' repugnant)
La discriminación repugna nuestra forma. ('forma' is finding 'discriminación' repugnant - opposite!)
4) Are both of the sentences grammatically correct and if so how do you justify the second one?
Cheers
Larry Vega
[1] http://lema.rae.es/drae/
[2] http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/100085/verbs-like-gustar#.UAionmFa6K4
[3] http://lema.rae.es/drae/?val=repugnar
[4] http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/repugnar
[5] http://www.linguee.es/espanol-ingles/
4 Answers
Hello, larry! Very nice question.
Intransitive verbs are those that cannot take a direct object. Your examples of gustar are intransitive. A direct object can be recognised because:
--->it receives the action of the verb
--->it can always be replaced by lo/la/los/las
---> if we turn the active sentence into a passive one, the direct object becomes the subject.
So:
1)
The way I see it you might as well consider it a transitive usage with 'me' actually being a direct object pronoun
Let's see if in the sentence "me gusta la torta" me can be a DO:
La gusto la torta :( La torta es gustada por mí :(
Since both sentences are incorrect, the ME is not a direct object, and grammatically this construction is intransitive.
2)
me repugna ese olor/ ese olor me repugna
they're listed under the transitive usage. What's going on? Erroneous SD dictionaries?
Yes. SD dictionary is wrong. This is a clear intransitive use.
Collins also lists this sentence under the transitive usage: siempre ha repugnado el engaño
Collins is correct. We can say "siempre lo ha repugnado", where "el engaño" acts as a DO.
I'm of the impression that this is a fairly rarely used gustar construction whereas the transitive constructions are much more common.
You are 100% correct.
3)
Is it correct that the transitive usage of 'repugnar' also is much less prevalent than the intransitive one?
The transitive use of repugnar is not so uncommon as the one of gustar (which is very seldom used). However, the intransitive use (me repugna X) is still far more common than (repugno X).
Hi cogumela!
Ehm... actually I'm not sure how to post my comments to your answer - in my own question or as a new "answer". The "comment" field isn't really all that useful, so I'm gonna post here...
First of all, thanks a lot for your answer! Very kind of you taking the time with helping me out on this one.
1) Good point with the conversion of the active sentence into a passive one. I guess what I was looking for was some sort of an intransitive feel of the 'gustar' sententence but now I'm not even sure myself anymore about how this should manifest itself :-D
2) Cool! Got that one right!
3) Good to know!
4) What about this question? The way I see it, the last sentence can't be grammatically correct.
I'm a beginner so I've got questions for years to come :-D -
Beginner? Sorry, but I have to disagree. This is too much of a catch for a beginner:
4.
Once again you are right. This is a bad translation.
Can you see the reason?
"Señor Presidente, la discriminación, en cualquiera de las caras que pueda mostrar, repugna nuestra forma de entender la convivencia y socava uno de los principios rectores de la Unión, el de la igualdad de trato."
"(ES) Mr President, discrimination, in any of its guises, deeply offends our sense of co-existence and undermines one of the guiding principles of the Union, that of equality of treatment."
In Spanish, we'd say either:
- La discriminación repugna a nuestra forma de entender.....
or
- Señor Presidente, a nuestra forma de entender la convivencia le repugna la discriminación.
The sentence as they have written it is not correct Spanish. Splitting hairs, I would even say that "ofender a" would have possibly been a better choice than "repugnar" in the given context.
"This is a bad translation. Can you see the reason?"
Yup! And your proposed translations make much more sense to me. I also see your point about using 'ofender a' instead as this would be closer to the english version - you can easily be offended without feeling disgusted/revolted.
Thanks for paying compliments on my Spanish! And once again - thanks a bunch for answering my questions!
