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Pronouns with subjunctive

Pronouns with subjunctive

3
votes

I know that I already asked a question similar to this one but I didn't feel like people on here understood what I was trying to say.

So why is it that in Spanish that you have to use an indirect object pronoun in sentences like these

Te Recomiendo que hagas galletas

Why do you have to put the indirect object pronoun te i there. It just seems like it is just redundant.

Because when you put the te it is saying.....I recommend to you that you make cookies.

So I just don't understand why you wouldn't say. Recomiendo que hagas galletas. Beca use then it would say.....I recommend that you make cookies.

The same issue arises with this sentence. El professor les dice a los estudiantes que estudien.

The " les" is just being redundant.

I don't understand why you have to put these pronouns in there.

7964 views
updated Dec 9, 2012
posted by Thegreatone

4 Answers

3
votes

I think everyone understood it correctly, and that perhaps you're still missing two things.

Please don't think I'm trying to be flip here -- not at all.

1) the subjunctive and pronouns are two SEPARATE issues, and have Nada to do with each other. I.e. the 'redundancy' exists, if that's the way you want to view it, exactly the same in the indicative.

2) In languages, you have to be a bit existential or you'll go crazy. Sometimes things just ARE. There is no more a reason for requiring IOPs in Spanish, than there is for having grammatical genders, both ser and estar, saber and conocer, etc etc. It is just how that language evolved. Language rules are in reality, for the most part, fit to practice, and then retroactively declared rules, especially for anything irregular.

It's like looking at a scatter plot of human behavior and wondering why it describes a bell curve. It just IS. Language, as exists today, is largely arbitrary. People organically and randomly evolved a method of communicating w/o regards to rules.

Don't fight it so much, and just do what they do wink

Accept and practice. Question for understanding to see where patterns exist. Then when they don't, go back to accepting/using/practicing.

Buena suerte amigo.

updated Dec 9, 2012
edited by rogspax
posted by rogspax
You're right, it's not an exact science. - rac1, Dec 9, 2012
If only. I´d be able to appear at least 37% less stupid 15% of the time. - rogspax, Dec 9, 2012
Excellent response. - heliotropeman, Dec 9, 2012
2
votes

I know exactly what you mean, it seems very redundant to an English speaker. Some users wouldn't understand that... but yeah, you just have to deal with it. It is as it is, and that's that. The sooner you stop trying to rationalize it, and accept it, the quicker you'll learn.

I guess you can think about it this way.

To an English mind...

Te Recomiendo que hagas galletas = redundant

because

Recomiendo que hagas galletas... would suffice

I recommend you make cookies

But to the Spanish mind it may be like... You recommend to whom that I make cookies?

(Which is showcased by Caefuegos response)


Actually, without them, those subject would be doing those actions without knowing or indicating to whom.


Well, always always always, you use the IOP with the indirect object... it's one of the more cut and dry simplistic rules of Spanish.

updated Dec 9, 2012
edited by a-YU-dar
posted by a-YU-dar
Actually it would be more like "I recommed that you make cookies", because there is not indirect object we would have to say it in general. - -cae-, Dec 9, 2012
I think that I would need an English speaker's mind to do it as you would like.*** - a-YU-dar, Dec 9, 2012
You were right. Now, about rephrasing my answer, I think that I need an English speaker's mind to do it as you would like it. - -cae-, Dec 9, 2012
because there is no indirect object (pronoun)*** -o- because there is not an indirect object (pronoun)*** - a-YU-dar, Dec 9, 2012
2
votes

Recomiendo que hagas galletas is not incorrect. But it is just a vague and general recommendation (not direct advice). However, "Te recomiendo que hagas galletas" is a direct and unquestionable piece of advice given to you.

The same goes for: El profesor dice a los estudiantes que estudien. It's a general statement made about any group of students. But when you say: "El profesor les dice a los estudiantes que estudien," the advice is being given directly to these students.

updated Dec 9, 2012
edited by francobollo
posted by francobollo
2
votes

Using the Indirect Object Pronouns doesn't create any redundancy. Actually, without them, those subjects would be doing those actions without knowing or indicating to whom.

It doesn't matter how many times you rewrite and rephrase the question, the pronouns are necessary. Maybe this is your time for changing of paradigm.

updated Dec 9, 2012
edited by -cae-
posted by -cae-
Thanks Carlos. - rac1, Dec 9, 2012