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Ha vs. Hay Can anyone explain why these are both 3rd person singular forms of haber?

Ha vs. Hay Can anyone explain why these are both 3rd person singular forms of haber?

6
votes

In the present tense translation of haber there are two 3rd person singular forms ha and hay. I understand that "hay" means there is or there are and "ha" is typically used in the present perfect, what I don't understand is how a verb can have two conjugations for 3rd person singular.

Thanks so much!! Amanda

21139 views
updated Jun 10, 2014
posted by ajbrockm
My purpose is not for speaking, I can speak fluently in Spanish and understand how to use them both, but I am a Spanish teacher and want to be able to explain to my students why this is in a grammatical sense. Thank you all so much for your responses!! - ajbrockm, Mar 14, 2012
They are not both third person singular forms. Hay is third person singular plus--see below. - EugenioCosta, Jun 5, 2013

6 Answers

4
votes

Forget that they look the same.

They are not.

Haber is an auxillary verb.

Hay only oocurs in the sense of there are, there is, there were, there might be, there used to be.. etc.

I'm totally hopeless on grammar. I find it better to concentrate on what things mean and how to say them. This is apurely personal method and we all vary in our way of learning. If you get too bogged down by grammar early on you may find it very difficult to get talking, that is my only bit of advise. ( Obviously, I myself should have learnt much more grammar earlier.Then I would make less mistakes...)

updated Jun 5, 2013
posted by annierats
A grammar person will hopefully come by and help. - annierats, Mar 12, 2012
Thank you!!! - ajbrockm, Mar 14, 2012
Good answer mate . - ray76, Jun 5, 2013
3
votes

Gringo and annie both have good answers grin

Haber is one of the trickiest verbs out there. Ill explain it a little bit more in detail, even though i'm sure you're already farmiliar with it...

     -*Hay* (present tense) is used to say "there is" or "there are."

=No hay ningunos coches en que pueda comprar. There aren't any cars that I can buy.

     -*Hay* in the past is *había* which also can mean *had* in a figurative way.

=Había muchas personas a la fiesta. There were many people at the party.

--Or--

Cuando llegaste, ya había cocinado almuerzo. When you arrived, he had already cooked lunch.

      -And "ha" is 3rd person meaning *has* in the present.

¿Ella ha muerto? Has she died?

Anyways I think this is the only one verb in Spanish with this kind of conjugation (2 forms in one form.) Like Gringo said, don't preocupy yourself with why, trust me I tried that and got wayy to confused. grin

updated Jun 6, 2013
edited by BradyLabuda
posted by BradyLabuda
Thank you!!! - ajbrockm, Mar 14, 2012
Hay is not a third person singular form of haber. It is ha plus y (Latín ibi). The French have an equiivalent, il y a, but they separate the y. - EugenioCosta, Jun 6, 2013
3
votes

What should really blow your mind is that they also have different meanings. Ha is the 3rd person form of Haber used as an auxiliary verb. While hay is the 3rd person form of the verb haber (non-auxiliary) which form is not used in modern Spanish except in the 3rd person forms.

At least that is how I understand it. I agree with Annie. Don't get bogged down in grammar. Just accept it and use it without having to understand why. I believe too much grammar is a hindrance to speaking. Some basic grammar is however, required.

updated Mar 20, 2012
posted by gringojrf
Cheers, Gring! - annierats, Mar 12, 2012
Thanks Annie. - gringojrf, Mar 12, 2012
Thank you!!! - ajbrockm, Mar 14, 2012
2
votes

It is actually quite simple. In late Latin, habeo was used impersonally in the third person singular with ibi, as HABET IBI, "there is". This is the origin of the French "il y a" ("it has there" = "there is") and also of the Spanish "hay", which is actually "ha+y (ibi--the same "y" as in French in origin).

In short HAY in Spanish is NOT just the third person singular used impersonally, it is the third person singular impersonal plus "y" (ibi).

updated Jun 5, 2013
edited by EugenioCosta
posted by EugenioCosta
Thank you, I had never thought of that, possibly because I rarely think in French.. Helpful, actually. - annierats, Jun 5, 2013
De nada. No hay de que agradecer. Before the collapse of the educational system even schoolboys knew this. Now the teachers themselves are as deprived as their students, and working to deprive generations more. - EugenioCosta, Jun 5, 2013
1
vote

Ha and hay, as you said, are both third-person singular conjugations of the verb "haber." "Hay" is the existential form of the verb, whereas "ha," "han," etc. are used to express the auxiliary form. Something sort of similar happens in English: "to be" is typically used as a copula, or a linking verb("I am cold"), but when it is used in such a way as "I think, therefore I am," it refers simply to the existence of the subject, rather than identifying it with any predicate. The spanish "ha" and "hay" are the same idea. They just have two different forms for the two meanings because Spanish is weird. raspberry Hope this helped.

updated Aug 14, 2013
posted by 7c1d19c437
Welcome to the form!' - 0080b918, Jun 5, 2013
Welcome to spanishdict! - 0080b918, Jun 5, 2013
No. There is no such distinction and "hay" is no more "existential" than the English ""there is" or the German "es gibt". - EugenioCosta, Jun 5, 2013
There's obviously a distinction between them, otherwise there wouldn't be three third-person forms. And what I mean by "existential" is that it signals nothing more than the existence of something. There is a boat. A boat exists. You know what I'm saying? - 7c1d19c437, Aug 14, 2013
Or four third-person forms, depending on whether you consider "hay" for third-person singular and "hay" for third-person plural the same form or two different forms... - 7c1d19c437, Aug 14, 2013
1
vote

Adding to ProjectTermina said.

And that's is represented in English by:

There is - There was

There are - There were

Oops, it had been answered by BradyLabuda. smile

updated Jun 5, 2013
edited by chileno
posted by chileno
Actually there is quite a difference between the English "there is" and hay--hay is impersonal and invariable, always singular, as is the "a" in il y a. That is not true of the English - EugenioCosta, Jun 5, 2013
In fact the Ënglish "there is" may be one source of the many of absurd and simple-minded botches in English logic and "philosophy". - EugenioCosta, Jun 5, 2013
Logically and semantically this is an important difference. - EugenioCosta, Jun 5, 2013
What do you mean by this : "as is the "a" in il y a."? It is singular - chileno, Jun 5, 2013
En la frase francesa "il y a", "a" = ha en español, y es siempre singular también. - EugenioCosta, Jun 5, 2013