Is bad grammar common among native Spanish speakers?

Question

Among the masses within the English speaking population, there can be found quite a lot of people that even though it is their native tongue, don't seem to grasp the basic rules of grammar. Many even seem to pride themselves in their irreverence of those rules. I would absolutely not recommend learning to speak English from that kind of person.

My assumption is that the problem is part of the human condition, and therefore not limited by language boundaries. That assumption causes me to approach learning from random native Spanish speakers with caution. I don't want my cynicism to impede my learning. But, at the same time, I find it more difficult to unlearn things once I absorb them, than to learn things correctly to begin with.

So, these are my questions.

Are there many native Spanish speakers who really butcher their mother tongue?

Am I overly concerned?

This is such an interesting question that I never really thought about! Thanks for bringing it up :) - allyssa16, Mar 4, 2012

I've actually thought about this. Good question! - Findy, Oct 28, 2015

That is aother reason that the moderators insist on knowing a new members language proficiency before they correct posts before being asked to . - ray76, Oct 28, 2015

"another" - ray76, Oct 28, 2015

Answer 1

There are some in any language that as you said "butcher" the language, there are a lot more than don't follow every grammatical rule and there are very few who speak perfectly correctly I they sound as strange as the ones who 'butcher" the language. Language is a living thing and is slightly different for every individual. Stay away from the Butchers and the Perfectionists. And learn from the vast middle ground of people.

I would not stay away from the so-called perfectionists. I would learn from them and use that knowledge when I have to write essays, academic papers, etc. - FigueroaGaray33, Mar 4, 2012

Another thing, language is a living thing, but we should always strive to be better and better. Mediocrity should not be what one settles for, in my opinion. - FigueroaGaray33, Mar 4, 2012

Okay I see your point. But since I never have need of writing academic papers I will stay away from them. - gringojrf, Mar 4, 2012

Who said anything about mediocrity? There is a vast middle ground that does include the mediocre as well as the well spoken. Personally I strive for communication, but not at the cost of grammatical perfection. - gringojrf, Mar 4, 2012

All I'm saying is that were it a choice between the "perfectionists" and the "butchers," I'd stay away from the butchers, that's all. I totally get what you mean though. - FigueroaGaray33, Mar 4, 2012

Perfection is really not possible anyway. I tend to apply what I was taught while firing a rifle. If you aim small, when you miss you'll only miss by a little. If you aim large, you'll miss by a lot. - ciscocaja, Mar 4, 2012

I would prefer to have the perfectionists arguing over my improper use of a comma, rather than agreeing that I don't understand how to properly convey a thought. - ciscocaja, Mar 4, 2012

I'd rathar you tried to convey the thought even if the comma was wrong the first 100 times. Listen what I'm saying is taht when you were a baby you made tens of thousands of mistakes and yet you learned. I bet you did learn fro perfect English speakers. - gringojrf, Mar 4, 2012

No matter what you are going to make thousands of mistakes learning Spanish. Don't let that keep you from learning from anyone who can help. - gringojrf, Mar 4, 2012

I completely agree that I will make a lot of mistakes. That's exactly why I'd like to be corrected by someone who truly knows. - ciscocaja, Mar 4, 2012

I don't always speak perfect English. But, I do have a solid foundation of proper grammar. It's much easier for me to start from there. - ciscocaja, Mar 4, 2012

Okay everyone is different. I didn't know hardly any grammar until I started learning Spanish. Sure I knew what a noun, verb, adjective, adverb, pronoun were. But independent clasuses and dependent clauses, adverbial phrases, conjunctions, propisitions - gringojrf, Mar 4, 2012

were vague concepts and even today don't ask me to diagram a sentence. Yet I got through graduate school and rose tot he top of my profession, without ever learning from an expert English speaker. Some excellent ones yes, lots of good ones, and a few. - gringojrf, Mar 4, 2012

Answer 2

Funny you should ask because I was just talking to my tutor about this.

I live in a Guatemalan village where Spanish is their second language (Kaqchickel is their first language) and I notice mistakes when people speak to me and when I see writing.

Many mistakes are in conjugation and gender agreement. The written mistakes are often with "b" and "v." Also, if I use a technical, medical, legal, etc., word they often ask for an explanation of what it means.

Thank you, Mariana! - ciscocaja, Mar 5, 2012

That's so interesting. Thanks, Mariana! (Nice to see you!) - Findy, Oct 28, 2015

Answer 3

Absolutely. Just like in English (or any other language), being a native does not mean that you are a grammarian or even really good at grammar.

Thank you, Figueroa! That "or any other language" thing was really the core of my question. I didn't know if other languages were as susceptible to abuse as English. - ciscocaja, Mar 5, 2012

Answer 4

When I took a Spanish class, two of the girls in my class were born in Columbia and lived there until they were 10 years old. I often receieved better grades than them on grammar tests. They would try writing what they thought "sounded" right, but that is not often the case.

For example, in English "Where are you going" is incorrect. Technically, grammar states it should be "To where are you going?" But English-speakers never say that. It sounds strange. Another example is "Who were you speaking with?" The correct way is "With whom were you speaking?" But the latter would never be used at risk of sounding awkward.

My friends had the same issue, especially when we learned phrases using "if" (like "Si habría comido todo, hubiera recibido un chocolate") or "as if" such as "Hablas como si fueras una loca." More often than not, these phrases would sound awkward. And they´d tell the teacher "This sounds weird" and she would simply say "it may sound strange, but this is the grammatically correct way of writing it."

Very well said. Absolute correct grammar is hardly ever heard in every day conversation. So why kill yourself to learn it? Learn the language as it is spoken from as many different sources as possible. Great post. Thank you. - gringojrf, Mar 5, 2012

gringojrf, I get what you are saying. But, I think you've missed the point of my question. I want to know the rules... not so I can strictly adhere to them, but so I can choose which ones to relax in certain company. - ciscocaja, Mar 5, 2012

In English, I can tell which rules are and aren't being followed. It's easy to relax rules when appropriate. It's impossible to follow rules you haven't bothered to learn. - ciscocaja, Mar 5, 2012

I really don't want to be told something is "wrong", because it's "too" proper. I'll be able to pick up on coloquial habits on my own. - ciscocaja, Mar 5, 2012

Thanks for the answer, Missy. That actually helps a lot with my concerns. ;) - ciscocaja, Mar 5, 2012

Glad to help! I don´t know which rules are aren´t being followed in Spanish. Obviously it depends on the people "to whom you are talking" :) like if they are teenagers or businessmen. Just copy them, or ASK! People love to help teach their own language"! - missy8888, Mar 6, 2012

I don't know how to address native speakers with whom I work to tell them that what they are teaching is incorrect. Advice? - Srashrader1, Oct 27, 2015

Answer 5

Incredibly enough, most people think they need to learn grammar in order to learn a language.

If you are one of those, I take it, you from the ages 6 to say 12 y.o., used to ask your mom or dad if you needed the Indicative Present tense or whatever tense to say something.

I don't think so.

I understand grammar is important, but not nearly important to most people in a given language, where most just speak and write more or less OK, without any more knowledge of grammar than given to them during school.

Now, if you are a philologist...Yes, of course grammar is important and you get to discuss those esoteric meanings of hidden and almost forbidden words that mere mortal don't even dare to touch. But that is not common.

Although to a philologist what I am saying is like a capital sin, it really isn't. You see, it would be as if i were a Dr. and I expected you to know medicine as well as I do.

Then we have the important part of how a learner of a language knows who is he talking with?

How can you, even if you were a grammarian in your own language trying to learn another language, determine that the native of the other language has more or less the same amount of knowledge of grammar in his or her own language?

There so many things that are said and carried over without really thinking.

In order for you to learn another language you have to think in that language, without translating to/from your language.

How can anyone think in a foreign language without knowing that language? It is beyond me.

The other thing that bothers me is "English is a dynamic language" really?

Is it really English or slang that is dynamic?

Several other little things that make student stray from learning the language, etc

Edit:

I want to make sure that people understand that I don't advocate for "no grammar" or it is OK to speak and write ungrammatically.

All I am saying is that in order to learn a foreign language you don't need grammar. Just like when you were growing up, later when you knew how to speak, read and write, much later you began with your grammar. That's all.

Most likely you are saying "well, I'm not a kid anymore" and my answer to that is "Correct" that's why you don't have to learn stuff like reading and writing in the other language, you already know how read, write and express yourself in your native language.

To pursue a "higher" education is left to the individual, that's for sure. Wouldn't you love to talk like a 12 y.o. in the other language?

After you know how to read and write and talk fluently in the other language. After that you can try a course in grammar. Provided you know your own, because that's the other thing. Many people embark on learning a foreign language and dive right into that language's grammar, without properly understanding their own native language. How crazy can that be?

I do agree with you Chileno. I wasn't disagreeing, just trying to refine my thoughts on the subject. - Winkfish, Oct 29, 2015

No problem. But I want to make sure that the "steps" were well laid out. See? - chileno, Oct 29, 2015

Answer 6

I'm concerned as a Spanish language teacher about the number of students and teachers that don't speak or write correctly in any language. This country and many others have moved so far away from the accurate language. Yes, we are more diverse and this adds to the evolution of language. However, vocabulary is one thing and grammar is another. Grammar should not change. The rules haven't disappeared. I don't care if 'with whom are you speaking? " sounds funny or not. It is correct.

I have a Master's in the Spanish Language. I am an American who has studied language. I know more about the Spanish language than the English language. If we are going to teach a language, it needs to be one that we have studied and mastered, not just one that we speak.

There is also a difference between written formal language and spoken daily language. What may be acceptable in the spoken language is rarely acceptable in writing.

How you speak and write says a lot about you as a person. It reflects your education and your philosophies.

I really like what ciscocaja said. I agree. Srashrader

Answer 7

I know this is an old thread, but it has been brought back to life, and it is a very interesting question. Do we try to be perfect or do we settle for less? This is part of a speech by the legendary American football coach Vince Lombardi at his first team meeting with the Green Bay Packers:

“Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good.”

As it relates to grammar, the fact that "No one is perfect" or "It sounds funny" is no reason not to strive for correct grammar, or even perfect grammar. As for sounding funny, remember that correct grammar didn't always sound funny. People really spoke like that.

So, in my humble opinion, we should try to speak, and certainly write, with perfectly correct grammar knowing full well it will never be perfect. I am not going to call somebody out for asking "Where are you going?" instead of "To where are you going?", but I will destroy someone who says "Irregardless..."

My two cents.

Well said. I know I strive for perfection, but fall short in many ways. We have to keep the standards high or else the language deteriorates to unbelievably ugly standards. - Daniela2041, Oct 29, 2015

I agree that the standard correct forms should be taught in schools, so people can use or modify them according to their situation. - jennysk, Oct 29, 2015

Please read the edit on my entry. - chileno, Oct 29, 2015

I read your edits, Chileno. Well said. - Winkfish, Oct 29, 2015

Answer 8

Short answer: "yes" or if you prefer Spanish: "Sí"

A veces tengo estudiantes latinos en mis clases de español y son ellos que (me parece) tienen más dificultad con la gramática y ortografía que los principiantes angloparlantes.

That is en general a yes, especially in this country. You see, most of people coming to the "north" are of humble beginnings, social stratus. - chileno, Oct 29, 2015

Not true. My students are fairly well-to-do, from good social status. Some have much better cars than what I do. Oh yes, some are native Californianos. - Daniela2041, Oct 29, 2015

:) - chileno, Oct 29, 2015

Dani, remember that many came to this country to do better thatn how they were doing in their countries, hence they could be potentially doing extremely well, without being true that they came from a different social stratus than where they are now. - chileno, Oct 29, 2015

Answer 9

Estoy de acuerdo con Gringojrf.

las lenguas nacen de la gente , no de los libros. Como todo en la vida, el equilibrio está en el medio. Si fuéramos tan puristas todos hablaríamos la misma lengua porque no habría evolucionado.,y si no cuidásemos la gramática cada uno hablaría su propio y personal idioma, con lo que no nos entenderíamos.