direct object pronouns - clarification

Question

I'm confused again!

One of my workbooks says that double use of a direct object pronoun + direct object after the preposition 'a' can only occur if the direct object is another pronoun - ie never a noun.

For example:

'No la puedo ver a Elena' = wrong!!!!

'No la puedo ver a ella' or 'No la puedo ver' or 'No puedo ver a Elena' = correct!!!!

I thought to myself...."Fantastic, I understand this"

Then, I started to read another workbook (conversational Spanish) and a sentence said:

'Toda la familia y Carlos la acompañan a Karen al aeropuerto'

My question is: Is this sentence wrong? We have a direct object pronoun (la) plus a noun following a preposition (a Karen).

Como siempre gracias de antemano por tu ayuda.

Creo que tienes que cambiar de libro, Billy :) jajaja - Cordobesa, Jan 30, 2012

Ya lo sé, pero tengo un adicto a los libros jeje :) - billygoat, Jan 30, 2012

jajajaja "soy" ;) - Cordobesa, Jan 30, 2012

lol gracias cordo! One day I will learn when to use ser and tener properly :) - billygoat, Jan 30, 2012

¡De nada! No te preocupes, yo también algún día aprenderé a usar correctamente "in", "at", "to", "on", etc., etc. jajaja - Cordobesa, Jan 30, 2012

Answer 1

Hi Billy!!!

'Toda la familia y Carlos (la) acompañan a Karen al aeropuerto'

My question is: Is this sentence wrong? We have a direct object pronoun (la) plus a noun following a preposition (a Karen).

Yes, the sentence is definitely wrong, you need to remove either the la, or the a Karen

Please also see Heidita's answer too

As if they aren't confusing enough without throwing in more pronouns. - 0074b507, Jan 30, 2012

yay gracias cogu!!! I'm not going crazy! Grrrrr I hate it when there are errors in learning material. If I didn't have you and this forum I may have given up now. I hate being confused lol it hurts my head jeje! - billygoat, Jan 30, 2012

Answer 2

This "redundant" object pronoun will occur if either the d.o. or i.o. is a personal pronoun as you mentioned (independent of its location to the verb).

But if the d.o. or the .i.o. (even if a noun) occurs before the verb in the sentence then the "redundant" i.o.p. or d.o.p. is required.

e.g. A mí me gustan manzanas. You cannot say: A mí gustan manzanas (the i.o. is before the verb, so the duplicative i.o.p. is needed). Neither can you say: Gustan a mí manzanas (since the i.o. is a personal pronoun you must say... Me gustan a mí manzanas.

I see no reason for it in your sentence, however. The d.o. is a proper noun and follows the verb.

By the way, yours is only the 2nd time that I have heard that i.o.p. or d.o.p. called a duplicative (or double) pronoun. Most articles refer to it as the "redundant" object pronoun which is something of a misnomer.

I have a link somewhere to the RAE explanation of this usage if you would like it, PM me. Here it is in English. Notice two possible explanations of the la in your example sentence:

Emphasis

In order to emphasize the direct or indirect object of a sentence, a redundant object pronoun may be placed before the verb.

This redundant object pronoun may be required or simply stylistic.

Manzanas takes the article: las manzanas... And Me gustan a mí las manzanas is a weird order, the normal order would be: A mí me gustan las manzanas, although the 95% of the time, we say just: Me gustan las manzanas otherwise it's very emphatic) - cogumela, Jan 30, 2012

gracias Q! - billygoat, Jan 30, 2012

Thanks Cogumela. I purposely left out the las in las manzanas. I didn't want any more confusing pronoun-looking words (though definite articles). Its confusing enough to follow. as is. - 0074b507, Jan 30, 2012

Grant me poetic license. I wanted to point out how the location effects the use of the i.o.p./d.o.p. Beside I think it needs to be pointed out that things like the subject do not have to follow the verb. Most students think Maria le gusta is incorrect - 0074b507, Jan 30, 2012

because they are so used to seeing Le gusta Maria. - 0074b507, Jan 30, 2012

Answer 3

to say: this is wrong...is dangerous, raspberry jeje

Words to live by!

Answer 4

I did think I had seen this before...and I was right, it is not "wrong", but unusual and it is not considered "good Spanish" in most Spanish speaking countries, however, it is even used by famous writers in others (for example Argentina)

I have learnt some time ago to say: this is wrong...is dangerous, jeje

La duplicación del complemento directo en otros casos (Lo vi a Juan; La saludé a María) es ajena a la norma culta de gran parte del ámbito hispánico, pero es normal en algunas regiones americanas, especialmente en los países del Río de la Plata: «Al pasar la madre cerca del baño la vio a Mariana tomando comprimidos» (Rausch/Bay Anorexia [Arg. 1990]).

I don't even know why Spanish has "rules". No one apparently follows them. Not like in English where everyone speaks with perfect grammar. - 0074b507, Jan 30, 2012

Thanks Heidita. At least I can now trust my conversational book again........oh hang on, but what about my grammar book???? jejeje, I might have to stick to English after all ;-) - billygoat, Jan 30, 2012

Not like in English where everyone speaks with perfect grammar. --------------lol, great - 00494d19, Jan 31, 2012

Answer 5

Thank you so much for clearing this up for me. Well, this just goes to show how fantastic the forum is. I have 2 books, each contradicting the other. As an advanced beginner / low intermediate student, all this did was confuse me like crazy lol.

However, now I am perfectly happy with it. Languages have nuances, good grammar practises and regional differences. How would I ever have know about this particular issue without the insight of the native and advanced speakers on here!

In my mind I will follow what my grammar book, is telling me. I still accept Cogumela's answer because I want to be familiar with Spanish as spoken/written in Spain. However I fully accept what Heidita is saying too. If ever I venture down the Rio de la Plata I will not correct the locals if they use it jejeje

Thanks again - one unconfused goat!

always welcome , amigo:) - 00494d19, Jan 31, 2012

:) I'm glad you have cleared this issue. I never thought this could be acceptable ! To me, it sounds really off :) - cogumela, Jan 31, 2012

But I'm only a speaker, and of course I don't know everything! I guess from now on, I'll do a search before answering questions! ;) - cogumela, Jan 31, 2012

you are my grammar book cogu :p - billygoat, Jan 31, 2012