hubiera-hubiera or hubiera-habría in contrary-to-fact situations

Question

Which is correct? Si yo hubiera sabido, habría venido. Or Si hubiera sabido hubiera venido. Or this one. Si la bolsa hubiera caído en el hueco, habríamos ganado el partido. Or should habríamos be hubiéramos. The examples could go on and on. The book says one thing. My friend says something else. Are they both correct? Does it make a difference if the word no is involved? Like, Si hubiera venido no habría participado. Does it make a difference if the subject of the clause remains the same or if it changes? I have done all the studying I know how to do and am drowning in information yet remaining ignorant. Any help will be Very Much appreciated.

Si hubiera sabido hubiera venido. = "If I had known, I had come" (nonsense) Si hubiera sabido hubiera venido. = If I had known, I would have come. (correct) - rabbitwho, Jan 3, 2012

Si hubiera venido no habría participado. = If I had come I wouldn't have participated, that's right, "no habria xdo" = I wouldn't have xed - rabbitwho, Jan 3, 2012

You are shining light in a dark place. Whether or not a No is involved makes no difference? - Pinolero, Jan 3, 2012

Answer 1

Pinolero, both are perfectly correct and commonly used. I guess in this case it's only a matter of personal, or regional preference.

Are they both accepted by the R A E? - rabbitwho, Jan 3, 2012

¡¡¡No me digas eso!!! Now I'm back where I started........ - Pinolero, Jan 3, 2012

Sí. Completamente - cogumela, Jan 3, 2012

Any time I used hubiera in both clauses accidentally my teacher corrected me... So now I'm confused! - rabbitwho, Jan 3, 2012

There must be a reason why every single book and website I've ever looked at on this subject has always explained it the way I did.. I can't find anything about having hubiera in both clauses anywhere - rabbitwho, Jan 3, 2012

Okay I found this discussion on the same problem, hubiera-hubiera is correct but it seems that it's non-standard: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1073594 - rabbitwho, Jan 3, 2012

Thanks a billion. Feel free to keep the information coming... - Pinolero, Jan 3, 2012

this is it...very common in Spain at least - 00494d19, Jan 3, 2012

Several teachers have told me that hubiera-hubiera is common but incorrect. "Nothing but the facts, ma'am." - Jeremias, Jan 3, 2012

Answer 2

I don't understand this thing people say about the subjunctive involving a subject change. More often than not it doesn't, that's just a confusing thing people say.

You're talking about what's called the third conditional in English.

If i had known you were coming I would have baked a cake.

Known and baked are past participles, past participles are used in the Spanish version as well.

The past perfect (had + past participle) part (clause) of the English third conditional is always the hubiera bit in the Spanish conditonal.

The hubiera bit ALWAYS goes with the "Si" clause just like the past perfect always goes with "if" in the third conditional.

the would have part (clause) of the third conditional is always the habría bit. (the bit that is NOT si/if bit)

Does that help?

You'll only get hubiera hubiera together if you have two things like that in the one clause.. E.g. If I had eaten and I had showered, I would have helped you and I would have enjoyed it!

Very good, understandable answer. Well done, Rabbit! Except that your good grammar doesn't fit the tune of the song...lol. - MLucie, Jan 3, 2012

Your last example translates as Si hubiera comido y me hubiera bañado, te habría ayudado y me lo habría gustado?????? - Pinolero, Jan 3, 2012

Looks perfect to me Pinolero! - rabbitwho, Jan 3, 2012

Well it turns out Spanish people say it both ways. But I'm always in favor of making things easier for yourself. What I said was right, it's not the only right way to say it.. it's just the easiest (for English speakers) right way to say it! - rabbitwho, Jan 3, 2012

What I said was right, --> Nice, Rabbit. - cogumela, Jan 3, 2012

I should have known she was an english teacher when she wrote "the english 3rd conditional" Too bad I have no idea what that is. lol - gringojrf, Jan 3, 2012

Thanks Cogumela. Well the third conditional is the past conditional gringojrf, you can look it up! - rabbitwho, Jan 3, 2012

Answer 3

They are both used interchangeably, but when the pluperfect of the subjunctive is used in both the beginning and ending statement I think it is more common to change the ending in one of the clauses to avoid monotony. Por ejemplo:

Si hubieras llegado a tiempo, hubieses (habrías) visto a la mujer de tus sueños.

Answer 4

Rabbit,

This is what RAE says, it doesn't talk about "non-standard" usage.
They are both perfectly correct, standard Spanish, and usual.

b) Si la condición se refiere al pasado, la prótasis va en pretérito pluscuamperfecto o antepretérito de subjuntivo y en la apódosis se emplea este mismo tiempo, preferentemente la forma en -ra, aunque también se admite la forma en -se: Si hubiera/hubiese tenido dinero, me hubiera/hubiese comprado un coche; el condicional compuesto o antepospretérito: Si hubieras/hubieses estudiado, habrías aprobado; o el condicional simple o pospretérito: Si hubiera/hubiese terminado los estudios, hoy tendría un trabajo mejor.

yeah i read that on the link I posted, I only finished reading it after, sorry! - rabbitwho, Jan 3, 2012

Answer 5

Thanks to everyone!